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[quote=”Scott”]From: [url=http://www.centralamericadata.com/en/article/main/Nicaragua_Brilliant_and_Enormous_Bid_by_China?]Nicaragua: Brilliant and Enormous Bid by China[/url]
“The delivery of a 100 year concession award for an Inter-oceanic Canal to a company without the capital or experience to carry out a project of this magnitude could be the result of a brilliant long-term operation by the Chinese government.”
See more at: [ http://www.centralamericadata.com/en/article/main/Nicaragua_Brilliant_and_Enormous_Bid_by_China? ]
[/quote]It (the canal “deal”) has nothing to do with investment and everything to do with influence and control.
IF the canal is ever built (I see that as highly unlikely) you can bet the Chinese will want to import their own labor and management during a process that will take a decade. No real job gain for the folks in Nicaragua there.
This whole deal is about building (in fact confirming) China’s growing influence and impact on the world stage. They have a real desire and need to divest themselves of all those US dollars (before them become worthless) they have accumulated so you will see them going on a buying spree of REAL assests and businesses.
Unlike the Japanese that spent it on overvalued real estate and other investments (golf courses and such) the Chinese will use the money wisely and not only use it for asset purchases but to increase their influence and CONTROL over other countries that have markets they need to sell to, and the natural resources they need to fuel their industrial machine back home!
It’s a long well thought out process. The world plays checkers while the Chinese play Chess.
That’s right! While the United States is mired in two unwinnable wars, and soon a third one in Syria, the backdoor is being flooded by illegals and bankruptcy.
You wonder if anyone is awake at the State Department, because this canal project is huge, and in our own backyard.[quote=”sweikert925″][quote=”johnnyh”]…because this canal project is huge, and in our own backyard.[/quote]
Nicaragua is no more our backyard than Canada is our front yard. It is actually a whole separate country unconnected to the US of A. If they want to build a canal across their country we have absolutely nothing to say about it, any more than Nicaragua has a say about whatever canals the US decides to build.[/quote]
If Nicaragua is so far away and of little apparent importance to the US why did we spend all that time, money, and effort involving ourselves in their politics when Danny was the rebel not a world leader?
The world is a LOT smaller place than you seem to think. And the actions and politics of countries far from our boarders have more to do with our politics back home than you may think.
“RISK” isn’t just an old style board game to some folks.
[quote=”sweikert925″][quote=”imxploring”]
If Nicaragua is so far away and of little apparent importance to the US why did we spend all that time, money, and effort involving ourselves in their politics when Danny was the rebel not a world leader?
[/quote]You know it’s getting REALLY annoying that people keep putting words in my mouth when I have never said anything like what they insist I did. I never said that Nicaragua was of little apparent importance, I just said it wasn’t the backyard of the US – meaning it dos not in any way “belong” to us. And I further said that whether or not they build a canal is their business, not ours. If you feel that having a Chinese built canal there (which consensus opinion says will never happen anyway) is a threat to the US then please explain why. And what is it that the US should be doing about it?
[/quote]
Three words as to why Chinese involvement in Nicaragua SHOULD be of importance to the US and expats looking to CR as a retirement location as well as those already here…. Influence, Favor, and Control.
I’ll leave you and the rest of the members of this community to connect the dots and make their own judgement on the issue.
[quote=”sweikert925″][quote=”imxploring”]
I’ll leave you and the rest of the members of this community to connect the dots and make their own judgement on the issue.[/quote]I did connect the dots and did make my own judgment. Now please answer my question: What is it the US should be doing about this?[/quote]
Very little the US can do as far as the Nicaragua situation. We closed that particular door years ago when we picked sides and watched as Danny came back to haunt us. So that one’s a lost cause for the US and the Chinese knew it. In war you probe your enemies lines and strike where they’re weakest, thus using the minimal amount of resources and manpower to achieve your objective. That’s all the Chinese did in Nicaragua. They probably could have promised Dan a lollipop or an ice cream cone and it was a done deal!
What Nicaragua and Danny got out of the deal was a “possible” investment and some nice time in the press that didn’t involve an earthquake and 200 dead! All some nice stuff Danny will use at home to convince folks that Nicaragua is actually on the world map still! Much like Hugo use to like to do… it’s all about perception and keeping your people thinking you have a plan, have their best interest at heart, and that what you’re doing ultimately will benefit them!
As to what the US can and should be doing… that’s a tough call because it requires MONEY….. the Chinese have ours…. we don’t…. and they need to spend it. So other than photo ops and state dinners there’s not much the US can do!
Nicaragua was a unique situation based on prior US involvement with players that are still in the game.
[quote=”sweikert925″]I think you’re being too pessimistic. The Nicaraguans threw the Sandanistas out once before and I suspect they will eventually do so again. Any new right wing government is then more likely to cozy back up the US, or at least become somewhat less cozy to the Chinese.[/quote]
Sweikert – you are showing, once again, your lack of knowledge with how things are done and what is happening and what has happened in Central American countries – in this case, Nicaragua.
Are you aware that the Nicaragua Constitution precluded a president from succeeding him/herself? Are you aware that Ortega has run in every presidential election since 1984 and he is now in his second term having been re-elected in 2011.How did that happen? Simple…..
[i]During an interview with David Frost for the Al Jazeera English programme Frost Over The World in March 2009, Ortega suggested that he would like to change the constitution to allow him to run again for president.[49] In Judicial Decision 504, issued on October 19, 2009, the Supreme Court of Justice of Nicaragua declared portions of Articles 147 and 178 of the Constitution of Nicaragua inapplicable; these provisions concerned the eligibility of candidates for President, Vice-President, Mayor, and Vice-Mayor.[50] For this decision, the Sandinista magistrates formed the required quorum by excluding the opposition magistrates and replacing them with Sandinista substitutes, violating the Nicaraguan constitution.[51] The decision was widely denounced by the opposing parties, the church and human rights groups in Nicaragua.[/i]October 19, 2009 was on a Monday – Ortega had called the Supreme Court of Justice into session on Sunday the 18th (with advance planning of course) and had them change the Constitution!
So don’t start spouting off about “The Nicaraguans threw the Sandanistas (sic) out once before and I suspect they will eventually do so again” without any knowledge of how things CAN’T get done.
Once he saw how Hugo did it in Venezuela, he took good notes and followed the same pathway.
[quote=”sweikert925″]I think you’re being too pessimistic. The Nicaraguans threw the Sandanistas out once before and I suspect they will eventually do so again. Any new right wing government is then more likely to cozy back up the US, or at least become somewhat less cozy to the Chinese.[/quote]
Come now my friend… you forget! This is the “new” face of the Sandanistas. A party of the people, for the people! Cut from the same cloth as our departed friend Hugo. Operating by the same political playbook! Looking out for the little guy, the poor, the oppressed, the illiterate, and the disenfranchised! After all they all get to vote…. even if they can’t read or have ever spent a day working to support themselves!
This is how leaders get elected these days…. you appeal to the underclass… they’re a political force by virtue of having expanded their voter base while enjoying the fruits of a welfare society. And political leaders love it! These folks are easily manipulated and far from being smart enough to see that promises and programs can never be delivered. Nor do they seem to care. Instant gratification is much more important.
Come to think or it, the current administration of the US isn’t far removed from having used the same method of getting elected. And it will only get worse from here… exponentially in fact…
[quote=”costaricabill”][quote=”sweikert925″]I think you’re being too pessimistic. The Nicaraguans threw the Sandanistas out once before and I suspect they will eventually do so again. Any new right wing government is then more likely to cozy back up the US, or at least become somewhat less cozy to the Chinese.[/quote]
Sweikert – you are showing, once again, your lack of knowledge with how things are done and what is happening and what has happened in Central American countries – in this case, Nicaragua.
Are you aware that the Nicaragua Constitution precluded a president from succeeding him/herself? Are you aware that Ortega has run in every presidential election since 1984 and he is now in his second term having been re-elected in 2011.How did that happen? Simple…..
[i]During an interview with David Frost for the Al Jazeera English programme Frost Over The World in March 2009, Ortega suggested that he would like to change the constitution to allow him to run again for president.[49] In Judicial Decision 504, issued on October 19, 2009, the Supreme Court of Justice of Nicaragua declared portions of Articles 147 and 178 of the Constitution of Nicaragua inapplicable; these provisions concerned the eligibility of candidates for President, Vice-President, Mayor, and Vice-Mayor.[50] For this decision, the Sandinista magistrates formed the required quorum by excluding the opposition magistrates and replacing them with Sandinista substitutes, violating the Nicaraguan constitution.[51] The decision was widely denounced by the opposing parties, the church and human rights groups in Nicaragua.[/i]October 19, 2009 was on a Monday – Ortega had called the Supreme Court of Justice into session on Sunday the 18th (with advance planning of course) and had them change the Constitution!
So don’t start spouting off about “The Nicaraguans threw the Sandanistas (sic) out once before and I suspect they will eventually do so again” without any knowledge of how things CAN’T get done.
Once he saw how Hugo did it in Venezuela, he took good notes and followed the same pathway.[/quote]
Same game the former president (another Hugo clone) of Honduras tried a few years back. Unfortunately for him he telegraphed his moves and the folks in his country (including the Supreme court and military) were smart enough and saw where it was headed and put a quick stop to it! They loaded him on a plane at gun point and shipped him off for a involuntary vacation in CR. It was funny when he showed up in CR wearing pajamas and slippers claiming he wasn’t trying to do what everyone knew he was!
I remember the conversations we had here at that time! Such good times! LOL
[quote=”imxploring”][quote=”costaricabill”][quote=”sweikert925″]I think you’re being too pessimistic. The Nicaraguans threw the Sandanistas out once before and I suspect they will eventually do so again. Any new right wing government is then more likely to cozy back up the US, or at least become somewhat less cozy to the Chinese.[/quote]
Sweikert – you are showing, once again, your lack of knowledge with how things are done and what is happening and what has happened in Central American countries – in this case, Nicaragua.
Are you aware that the Nicaragua Constitution precluded a president from succeeding him/herself? Are you aware that Ortega has run in every presidential election since 1984 and he is now in his second term having been re-elected in 2011.How did that happen? Simple…..
[i]During an interview with David Frost for the Al Jazeera English programme Frost Over The World in March 2009, Ortega suggested that he would like to change the constitution to allow him to run again for president.[49] In Judicial Decision 504, issued on October 19, 2009, the Supreme Court of Justice of Nicaragua declared portions of Articles 147 and 178 of the Constitution of Nicaragua inapplicable; these provisions concerned the eligibility of candidates for President, Vice-President, Mayor, and Vice-Mayor.[50] For this decision, the Sandinista magistrates formed the required quorum by excluding the opposition magistrates and replacing them with Sandinista substitutes, violating the Nicaraguan constitution.[51] The decision was widely denounced by the opposing parties, the church and human rights groups in Nicaragua.[/i]October 19, 2009 was on a Monday – Ortega had called the Supreme Court of Justice into session on Sunday the 18th (with advance planning of course) and had them change the Constitution!
So don’t start spouting off about “The Nicaraguans threw the Sandanistas (sic) out once before and I suspect they will eventually do so again” without any knowledge of how things CAN’T get done.
Once he saw how Hugo did it in Venezuela, he took good notes and followed the same pathway.[/quote]
Same game the former president (another Hugo clone) of Honduras tried a few years back. Unfortunately for him he telegraphed his moves and the folks in his country (including the Supreme court and military) were smart enough and saw where it was headed and put a quick stop to it! They loaded him on a plane at gun point and shipped him off for a involuntary vacation in CR. It was funny when he showed up in CR wearing pajamas and slippers claiming he wasn’t trying to do what everyone knew he was!
I remember the conversations we had here at that time! Such good times! LOL[/quote]
I remember as well – it brought back hilarious memories that Swiekert remembers as well….. or not!
Perhaps “Her Swiekert” may want to try and clean up Chicago before tackling Central America. Maybe like William Walker Sweikert has bit off more than he can chew!
I am not aware of any ally he has found so far (at least on this Forum) so it may be an uphill struggle, but if he can find a way to relax (or pharmaceuticals to help) then I wish him the very best!
[quote=”sweikert925″][quote=”imxploring”]
This is how leaders get elected these days…. you appeal to the underclass… they’re a political force by virtue of having expanded their voter base while enjoying the fruits of a welfare society. And political leaders love it! These folks are easily manipulated and far from being smart enough to see that promises and programs can never be delivered. Nor do they seem to care. Instant gratification is much more important.
[/quote]If what you’re saying is that peoople tend to vote in a way that advances their own selfish interests then I agree, but that’s true for both sides of the political divide. That’s just human nature. And your condescension toward left leaning voters is pretty crass. Not “smart enough”? Really! There are some pretty dumb members on the right last time I looked too. I don’t see that either side has a monopoly on low-information voters.
Your conclusion that it means there is a permanent left majority due to the social welfare programs is false. First of all the numbers of people who benefit from what you would call welfare is pretty tiny. Romney’s “47%” comment only corresponds to reality if it includes those who get Social Security and Medicare and that group of people are the most right leaning voter bloc there is. Even some of the people who get direct welfare payments vote Republican.
Wasn’t it Ronald Reagan who promised to roll back the welfare state and yet was elected president twice, the second time with one of the greatest landslides in US poltical history? (Of course he DIDN’T actually do much to roll it back, but that’s because he was smarter than most people gave him credit for at the time, including me).
So to conclude that Nicaragua is a permanent left wing country is simply wrong, no matter how many programs are in place to cater to the poor. Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela will all have right wing governments again someday.[/quote]
Unfortunately the recent phenomenon I’m referencing isn’t contained in Central America. Reagan’s election is a bit too far back in history to apply to debunking my statement. Go do a little research on the voting trends in the last two presidential elections in the US and check the voting figures by precentage and race. And how they voted. You might even be able to find some numbers on social economic voting treads.
What you will find is that larger and larger segments of society are voting in very clear trends. Trends that have NOTHING to do with the best or most qualified candidate. And while you and others will argue that this has always been the trend, that folks vote for the candidate that they think will do best for THEIR own needs, it is now far beyond that. Check on the voting figures by race and how they voted and tell me that what we’re seeing is within statistical norms or defendable as informed voters making a conscious decision to vote for the most qualified candidate.
The underclass have become a voting force that candidates now chase. It use to be contained to pockets in the inner cities. I use to watch as local candidates in these areas would help them to fill out the voter registration forms at the local hangouts with free food and drinks. Then on election day have buses with the same free goodies pick them up and drive them to the voting location giving them a sheet with all the candidates to vote for. THIS is a first hand experience, not something imagined or found on the internet! It wasn’t on the national level at that point, I’m talking about 28 years ago in the worst parts of NYC.
Now we have the same thing happening on the national level. And it is accelerating to the point that, as we have seen in south and central America, candidates now chase this voting block as a power base. With 45 million folks in the US on food stamps (I believe that’s the number off the top of my head) you have nicely defined voting block to go after that are willing to vote for anyone that promises them anything, even if it can’t be delivered. Are these REALLY the folks we want shaping the future of our country through the people they elect?
[quote=”sweikert925″]
I suppose I should be grateful that at least imxploring no longer feels the need to insult me when he disagrees with me about something, so maybe there’s hope for some of the rest of you.[/quote]
Hey, I’m still working on bending your mind….. insulting you was just to get your full attention! LOL 🙂
BTW… Unfortunately I see the weather warmed up in your neck of the woods this past weekend. Truly a sign that society is on the edge and that the path is going to be a bumpy one!
[quote=”sweikert925″][quote=”imxploring”]
Check on the voting figures by race and how they voted and tell me that what we’re seeing is within statistical norms or defendable as informed voters making a conscious decision to vote for the most qualified candidate…The underclass have become a voting force that candidates now chase. [/quote]I can’t believe you’re equating “underclass” with “race”. That says something about your attitudes and I’m sorry to say it isn’t very complimentary. OK, here’s a racial statistic with regard to voting:
“…[C]onsider the votes of another minority — Asians. Romney won among all voters making more than $100,000 a year by a margin of 54-44. Asian-Americans happen to be the highest-earning group in the U.S., out-earning whites, and they generally place enormous emphasis on family. A perfect fit for Republicans, no? No. Asians voted for Obama by 73-26; they were more Democratic than Hispanics.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-08/asian-voters-send-a-message-to-republicans.html
Here’s another statisic that may be relevant: in 1960, JFK won 78% of the vote among Catholics. Among Irish Catholics it was almost certainly higher but I couldn’t find a source for that. So the percentage of blacks voting for Obama may be an indication of something other than “what’s in it for me?”, don’t you think?
Finally, West Virginia has one of the highest rate of food stamp and welfare payments yet it voted for Romney 62% to 36% and they tend to vote more Republican every election.
Your attitude about race and voting is a perfect example of why Republicans have a hard time attracting black voters – you assume they are all welfare-addicted “low information” voters who only vote to get stuff. They tend to get that – they’re not as stupid as you seem to think.
But we’ve strayed too far off the subject of Nicaragua and the proposed canal, so I’ll just ask you straight out: Will Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua ever have right wing governments again or not?[/quote]
Perhaps I was a bit hasty in my efforts to stop insulting you! LOLSo you’re now implying (or did you out and out say it) that I’m a racist? I’m not sure if I’m more hurt by that or that you imply I’m also Republican! For the record I’m neither.
The underclass is a group which represents a wide band of our society. And as such nearly mirrors the ethnic and racial make-up of society for the most part. Accordingly whites make up the largest percentage currently. And as I will freely admit that I am in fact white it’s truly a stretch to call me a racist.
What I do find funny and perhaps an indicator of your leanings and racial issues slant is that you picked Asians to make your point. Perhaps one of the smallest groups to target to debate the issue or attempt to make your point. You seemed to have completely ignore, perhaps intentionally, perhaps not, black voters which make up both a much larger percentage of the population and voting pool. And therefore are much more statistically significant to the issue of how and why people vote the way they do.
Can you provide us with some of your internet wizardry to support your position if you us black voters to make the same point? I already know the answer but perhaps you’d like to try. Our readers might enjoy the exercise.
You can skip the race baiting. I’m well trained in avoiding it. Facts are key. And the numbers don’t lie.
When politicians get elected through the efforts of groups like ACORN (now history) that target a specific group of voters to advance their political future no one wins. When folks aren’t concerned or intelligent enough to get involved in the political process and are instead “guided” by such groups in their vote we’re headed for real trouble.
As to your question…. you used the word EVER…. as in FOREVER….. or NEVER! Very strong words that have a finality to them. And as we both know, using such words isn’t a great idea…. especially when applying them to the actions, or potential actions, of humans.
[quote=”sweikert925″]I don’t know you well enough to say whether or not you are a racist. But it was you who brought up the subject of race – not I – even though it had NOTHING to do with Nicaragua, or Daniel Ortega, or the Sandinistas, or programs for the poor in Nicaragua, or a proposed canal in Nicaragua, or the Chinese building a canal there.
Absolutely nothing.
As for my question, I will note your response as “declines to answer”.[/quote]
Unfortunately, as we know by the numbers, race does have somewhat of a correlation to economics. As does sex, education, martial status, and geographic location in some situations.
As to the relevance to the Nicaragua situation it has to do with how Danny got elected, and how he stays in power. Both he and Hugo targeted minority and the underclass voters in their rise to power. Both presidents of the people that quickly removed the controls that were in place to keep dictatorships from taking hold.
It’s the new path politicians take to office. And it should scare the hell out of people. You would think people would have learned after Hitler pulled something very similar. Difference was Hitler has appealing to a beaten down people. It took a while for the underclass to expand in the rest of the world for politicians to realize they could use the same playbook over the last 20 years or so.
While I can’t say I declined to answer your question I chose not to use a word implying finality. Is it possible yes. Is it likely, not in my opinion.
Unless there is a MAJOR change in society I dont see the tread changing it’s current path. That applies to both politics in south and central America as well as the US.
Am I to take it your not going to attempt to challenge my position with any other groups other than Asian and West Virgina voters? LOL
BTW. I’m taking a guess here but I’m thinking there are more folks on food stamps (straight numbers not percentages of total population) in NYC or Chicago then there are in all of West Virginia. Statistics are a funny thing you can make them say just about anything you want to make your point.
An interesting story about how the Chinese work. Seems their expansion into Africa isn’t going as planned.
Wonder if the politicians in Nicaragua and Costa Rica read the NYT?
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