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Alfred, History has proven that this has been the prevailing human pattern, but I refuse to believe that it can’t be any other way. I also understand that there have been times that war became inevitable, NOT because war is, but because the issues leading up to the war do not get addressed until the whole thing becomes a literal bloody mess….
I feel that there should be no bigger regret than to have caused the loss of life having had another option….Which is why I agree with Franklin & Jefferson, even when they might have had the need to resort to violence on occasion as we’re all SO tempted to do in our personal and political lives when we’re faced with people and gov’ts displaying unmovable stupidity….
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN:
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price.There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
Your net worth to the world is usually determined by what remains after your bad habits are subtracted from your good ones.
Do good to your friends to keep them, to your enemies to win them.
It is a grand mistake to think of being great without goodness and I pronounce it as certain that there was never a truly great man that was not at the same time truly virtuous.
Wars are not paid for in wartime, the bill comes later.
All wars are follies, very expensive and very mischievous ones.
Be at war with your vices, at peace with your neighbors, and let every new year find you a better man.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
THOMAS JEFFERSON:
Do you want to know who you are? Don’t ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.
Great points, Lotus.
Some quotes by Theodore Roosevelt;
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president… is morally treasonable to the American public. T.R .
We can have no “50-50” allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all. T.R.
There can be no fifty-fifty Americanism in this country. There is room here for only 100% Americanism, only for those who are Americans and nothing else. T.R.
The pacifist is as surely a traitor to his country and to humanity as is the most brutal wrongdoer. T.R.
The man who loves other countries as much as his own stands on a level with the man who loves other women as much as he loves his own wife. T.R.
Just some food for thought by another American president.
I choose to love LIFE, that includes human beings (and other life forms) from all parts of this planet and I will NEVER love a country more than I try to love and honour ALL LIFE, the latter is not given by me, but is my responsibility not only for myself, but for others. The former, as wonderful as any nation may be, it is constructed and played out by human beings; therefore, could inevitably be mistaken which is EXACTLY why it MUST BE QUESTIONED and subjected to another great concept, THE TRUTH.
I agree with most of your sentiments Rebeca. Where we disagree, is in the opinion that there is hope it can be any other way. While I would like to share that hope, history tells me otherwise. There are just too many times when nations and peoples refuse to settle by discussion, rather than war. History repeats itself throughout the human record. The odds are in favor of this being a continuing trend.
Aggression is built into the psyche of human beings. Whenever a group is large enough, mob mentality, whether in the form of patriotism, religious or ethnic unity, prevails. I guess the same might be said of righteous people, but it is possible they do not have the same capacity to use a galvanizing issue to bring about peaceful change. Maybe this says something about how we are psychologically wired. We always have the capability for change, but we use violent means too frequently to bring about most change. An example would be our own revolution.
Scott makes it seem so easy to give up your passport. You do what, trot into the State Department and hand it over? Yeah, right! Then there is the issue of the IRS which has a right to monitor your income, etc. for ten years thereafter to make sure you haven’t cheated them out of one sou of taxes. Scott, you really are beginning to sound like the people I don’t want to live with anymore — the kneejerk, right wing extremists who got us into this god-awful war and a whole lot more messes around the world. And no the liberals don’t scare me, but those other right wingers who believe in the rapture certainly do. Do you belong to that group?? I’ll bet you do.
Everyone born in the USA has the right of keeping their passport, and the right to criticize their government. That passport was issued by the people’s government of the US. The government works for the people, unless things have gone incredibly wrong in the past 231 years. Sometimes we forget that.
If a person chooses to turn in their passport, that is their own business. Making them turn it in is a matter of un-American behavior. Wanting them to turn it in, makes me question the person doing the asking.
I would not object to surrendering my passport. Who wants it? I would love to get the U.S. government out of my life entirely.
Armies are a destructive force. They are designed to be that. Keeping armies for defense is just plain BS. The Indians proved that by managing to oust the British colonials without using an army.
Soldiers are the responsible parties for all the miseries of war. Go ahead and blame the politicians if you want, but if there were NO SOLDIERS, there would be no armies to burn and kill everything in sight. The bottom line responsibility falls squarely in the laps of every individual. If you pick up a gun to defend or promote your way of life, you are
joining an omnipresent evil force at play in he world.Is it unrealistic to believe a country can exist without an armed force? Apparently not. Costa Rica is managing so far. And if I were a Costa Rican, I would resent being told that I am being protected by the United States. I would resent it because it implies two lies; 1) Costa Rica NEEDS protection. 2) Costa Ricans are not capable of self defense by diplomacy and reason.
Regards U.S. assistance with equipment for the intervention of drugs, that is done for the interests of the U.S., not for Costa Rica.
Well, I don;t see any reason to keep a U.S. passport if one is of the opinion that the U.S. is hopelessly lost and unlikely to change in my lifetime. On the other hand, how does one go about giving up a passport and are there any advantages to doing so besides bolstering your moral position?
Sprite, Try calling the US State dept. I’m sure they’ll be able to help, if you really are intent on giving up the passport. Another way is to become a citizen of another country and renounce all your loyalties to the USA. Or, you could apply for political asylum in another nation. Cuba, by way of the consulate in Mexico may be able to help. Although Lee Harvey Oswald had a rough time.
I hope I’ve been of assistance. I think I’ll be keeping mine.
Alfred, you’re too funny with that passport stuff…Anyway, there has been everything from non-warring to extremely belligerent cultures throughout time. Social exclusion was an incredibly effective way many non-violent societies used to punish someone that was not complying with accepted social norms. Societies have found diverse ways to come to agreements within and between groups. Every once in a blue moon there may be no other alternative, but in the last few thousand years we have been increasing quick to jump to this option–some people actually seem to salivate at the thought of shedding their opponents blood!
We humans are not alone in this socially learned difference regarding aggression and warring behavior. The same goes for animals. It’s not just about biology…This is even evident in animals that are 98% similar to us in DNA. Chimpanzees actually formulate warring groups and are very aggressive, even abusive to one another; however, the Bonobos (which you may have confused for chimps, but are somewhat smaller and weren’t even differentiated from Chimps until 1929) do not promote or participate in warlike behavior. The females use organizational strategies so that social pressure and mostly the threat of violence can stop any member (usually a male) of the group that is attacking a juvenile, another female and even another male. The differences are more than biological, they are socially promoted by the group because that is how they adapted to an environment that has easily met their basic needs. Bonobos are the ultimate “make love not war” of the animal kingdom–I love them. There’s a lot of food for thought there— Once an animals basic needs are met, then other less violent options become more viable. For humans, it’s a choice.. Charles Darwin who recognized Natural Selection also marveled at how humans were not totally under the control of their biology. Our biological tendencies do not have to become our inevitable destinies due to our ability to think, consider ethical constructs and make decisions that are based on the latter and not merely react based on our biology (hence our psychology). I believe Darwin was correct…
Thanks for catching the humor. We’ll be going out for a while. I’m sure I’ll be missed. LOL Catch up with you later tonight. I’m sure there will be more cannon fodder by then.
I can’t collect my social security in Cuba. Costa Rica doesn’t grant citizenship to foreigners except under special circumstances and there is no other country I want to move to besides Costa Rica.
One needs travel documents. If you know a way to get a Costa Rican passport short of marrying a Costa Rican, let me know. Also, think of the relief of not having to file all those pesky US tax forms. :-}
So, it is convenient to hold onto your US passport so you can travel, eh?
Sprite, spend five years as a resident in CR, then you can apply for citizenship there. I think you will still have to renounce your citizenship to the US, in order to stop paying taxes. Then again, you may still have to. I’m sure they will be glad to stop your SS payments as well. Check with a professional.
The question I have is, if you have no use for the US, why would you want the SS, outside of the obvious answer, you paid for it?
You’re right, there is no good reason to expect SS just because I paid into it and it is my money. That money was confiscated from me and other taxpayers by the U.S. government, used for decades to pay for wars, tax breaks for the rich, corporate welfare, etc..
But hey, why not just let Uncle Sam keep it along with my passport. I would then have the right to travel to Cuba or anyplace else without having to worry about the US government putting me in jail for doing so.
I am new to this discussion but reading these messages is sad. I am an American who married a Tica and plan on moving to Costa Rica when I retire in a few years. Please surrender your passport if you are ashamed to be an American. My wife and I met due to her strong opinions against the war but after I let her talk to People in Iraq and she changing her mind after getting first hand accounts of what they went through. If you want and example go see what Hugo Chavez is doing to Venezula, he slowly taking advantage of the poor un-educated to start a dictatorship. My wife’s family also understands the importance of self protection and the help the United States provides Costa Rica. The United States isnt perfect and mistakes have been made in all Administration(Democratic and Republican)Who started Viet Nam(Kennedy).
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