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“Conservative principles are what the United States was built upon. They made us strong. They made us successful. They made us a world power.”
I could agree with everything in this statement except the first word, which makes false the remainder unfortunately.
——–So you disagree that the founding fathers’ principles were conservative? You disagree that allowing prayer in public schools for the first 187 years was conservative? You disagree that prohibiting abortion for most of the first 200 years was conservative? You disagree that the words “one nation under God” are conservative? I’m not trying to be argumentative, rather inquisitive. Tell me what you believe I am missing, please.
Maybe a better way to say this is “If you voted for GW not once, but twice, and still believe you made wise choices, I would find it difficult to trust your judgment on other important national and international matters. I don’t mean to insult you. You belong to the other side of the political fence and we will never agree on the constitutional basics. Where I see erosion of our rights, you see necessary changes of those right for our protection. Ben Franklin said:
“Those that would give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither.”Edited on Aug 09, 2008 09:38
I apologize to everyone offended, starting with Kenneth.
——–I accept your apology and offer the same in return. I am indeed sarcastic, often without intent.
This discussion is like thousands I’ve had before. Fact is, we have different perceptions of the facts, and we process information in different ways. I truly don’t begrudge you for that, and hope that the same can be said in return.
What these public discussions do, however, is offer the benefit of two opposing perspectives to any “young skull full of mush” who might be reading here. If we will allow it, it can also be used to begin a period of compromise and unity. We are all losing in the current US political environment where we often find ourselves enraged by the other side.
Neither of us is ever going to change the others’ minds, so our best bet is to find a compromise between the two and move on. Otherwise we will continue to have two polar opposite parties who breathe so much fire on each other that it makes us feel like enemies instead of Americans. This isn’t good for our health. It isn’t good for our productivity. It isn’t good for our future.
*****
My name is Kenneth, and I approve this message.Now Kenneth, there’s a statement I can wholeheartedly agree with. If we allow ourselves to be divided, we will in fact be conquered—-then we’ll become our own worst enemies.
ecotonecons said: “Perhaps you could elaborate on what exactly makes a person ‘suspicious’?”
I’ll be glad to. Since I’m not a law enforcement officer, I am not briefed on the latest list of things to look for, so I can’t respond with any real degree of accuracy. Just from what little I know, however, I would be looking carefully at (oh this is going to be so politically incorrect) Arab men between the ages of 17 and 40.
I wish it weren’t so, but my acknowledging it does not change the fact that these are the perpetrators of most terrorist attacks worldwide. Statistics show that they do NOT act suspiciously prior to their heinous acts, so King Kenneth would have all customs agents check all of them.
For those who think I’m stepping on Ben Franklin’s toes by saying such a thing, I would say that Ben’s words were very logical at the time. He never faced – or could even imagine – the kind of evil our enemies embrace as Allah-inspired.
We worry about infringing on the liberty of a group of people based on their heritage, and I cringe at the thought. At the same time I believe the only way to have true security is to abandon (at least temporarily) the avoidance of prejudice that our enemies are aware of and using against us. Blame not the US government or the US citizens, but blame the 9/11 19 who changed our lives forever.
There are probably a lot more white Muslims than you think … Even Muslims with blond hair and blue eyes.
Congressional terrorism expert Yossef Bodansky says there are many blond, blue-eyed Slavs among these Bosnian Islamists, and there were “thousands trained by the mujahedin and a lot of them eventually joined the international brigades.” [ http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29887 ]
You can see some famous Anglo Caucasian Muslims at [ http://www.geocities.com/jrhalver/famous.html ]
Remember Cat Stevens (born Steven Demetre Georgiou)? Now Yusuf Islam who’s name was on a security “watch list” and was denied access to the US “on national security grounds” a few years back [ http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/22/usa ]
“In the United States, there are estimated to be roughly 80,000 white and Hispanic Muslims, along with a far greater number of African American ones.” [ http://www.alternet.org/rights/20681/ ]
Even if only 1% of them were extremists you’re looking at 800 people?
How many Christian, Hindu and Jewish extremists are there out there? Anybody know?
Scott Oliver – Founder
WeLoveCostaRica.comScott Oliver – Founder said: “How many Christian, Hindu and Jewish extremists are there out there? Anybody know?”
Not sure. More importantly, why do you ask? I don’t recall any acts of terrorism by any of those groups, so I’m finding trouble finding the relevance.
Most of us are aware that not all of our enemies shop at Osama Mart for their clothes. We’re also aware that they don’t all look alike. Most of them are entering the USA (directly or indirectly) from known Muslim states where radical groups are teaching them not only to hate, but to take it to the next level. Most of them are also similar in physical traits. We will never catch 100% of any enemy just as we don’t solve 100% of any crime category. The idea is to reduce it as much as possible.
How many Christians want their children to blow themselves up in the name of Christ so that their family will be honored? How many young Jewish lads are being coached by their rabbi on how to take out the most innocent people while blowing themselves to pieces? I have the answer for you: Zero. Zip. Nada. And HIN-dus?!?!?! That one made me spew Coca Light all over my 24″ Apple iMac computer monitor. I don’t think you can find a more peaceful religion.
The root cause of the current prejudice is fear, and that fear is solidly rooted in the experiences we have had in Yemen, Kenya, Syria, Tanzania, New York and most recently Iraq. In each case the perps were not blond haired, blue-eyed Paris Hilton look-alikes. They were all found to be initiated by guys who would not look out of place at the bin Laden dinner table.
Finally, having lived most of my life in the USA, I can tell you that black Muslims and middle eastern Muslims are really not on the same page at all. They don’t attend the same mosques, and there is very little interaction between them. The black Muslims are more focused on creating a separation from the white people they perceive to be oppressing them. Their strongest domination is in prison gangs, not in neighborhoods.
Scott wrote:
“There are probably a lot more white Muslims than you think … Even Muslims with blond hair and blue eyes.Congressional terrorism expert Yossef Bodansky says there are many blond, blue-eyed Slavs among these Bosnian Islamists, and there were “thousands trained by the mujahedin and a lot of them eventually joined the international brigades.”
How many Christian, Hindu and Jewish extremists are there out there? Anybody know?”
I can’t answer on numbers Scott but I watched a portion of a report on CNN tonight, they were covering violence in the West Bank, interviewing Israeli extremists who were willing to kill Palestinian women and children to further settlement expansion there.
My next door neighbor is an Iraqi native, he went missing for two weeks after Sept. 11. When he finally came home I asked where he’d been. “My family all traveled to my uncle’s house.” These folks are all hard working productive US citizens, who were afraid for their safety, scared to death, hiding.
Where does it stop—?
We create our enemies by our actions, if we want to be free and safe it will be through our actions.
So far, we aren’t winning many friends.
Most unfortunately are individuals like Kenneth. Now Ken, this is an observation not a personal attack but your comments answering Scotts reply are about the most bigoted words yet to appear in this thread. Osama Mart? Mister, you are a disgrace, I won’t be back to this thread—it has turned in a disgusting direction that I refuse to participate in any further.
ed f
You mention black Muslims in the USA Kenneth but fail to even consider the 400,000,000 – Yes! OVER FOUR HUNDRED MILLION MUSLIMS in Africa…. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Africa ]
There are about forty million Muslims just in Nigeria where I used to live … (Kano and later Kaduna)
Google “Jewish terrorist” and you’ll find a few stories.
Scott Oliver – Founder
WeLoveCostaRica.comCNN is running a documentary titled “God’s Jewish Warriors” similar to the segment they did on Palestinian terrorists/warriors. You need to watch that, Ken, before you say there is nada, zero, zip Jewish terrorists! And I’m Jewish so don’t make any nasty comments that what I just said was antisemitic. What about Rachel Cory? Do you think it was okay for that Israeli tank to have squashed her like an ant? And what about the bombings in Kenya? What color were the people who made the bombs? Iran has over 300,000 suicide bombers ready to take their place in paradise. I’ll bet a lot of them are blond and blue-eyed, and don’t look anything like your stereotypical Muslim terrorist.
ed f wrote: “…you are a disgrace, I won’t be back to this thread”
For the record, is this the same ed f who once (very recently) wrote that I should “buck up and take it like a man?” Seems a bit of a double standard, but I’ll accept it as an admission of defeat. “Osama Mart” is disgraceful? I think not. Being the world’s most wanted terrorist is a disgrace. Making fun of him certainly is not.
I’m trying to build bridges, but you want to take your toys and go home. Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Bye!
If they really WANTED Osama, they’d have him by now. We’ve got satellites that can see the color of your eyes from 400 miles up. And they can’t find a 6’5″ guy on dialysis?
Scott Oliver – Founder wrote: “You mention black Muslims in the USA Kenneth but fail to even consider the… OVER FOUR HUNDRED MILLION MUSLIMS in Africa.”
Since we have been talking about the US Customs right to take electronics at the border, I thought the terror history in the United States was the relevant topic here. Only Arab Muslims have attacked the USA. (Not counting home-grown wackos.)
I will investigate the Jewish terrorist stories. It doesn’t surprise me that in a country which lives in constant fear of unprovoked attacks that some people would snap and react in kind.
Now I must ask… What the heck were you doing in Nigeria? If that’s old news, I apologize, but it’s the first I’ve heard of it. I sort of understand Wall Street, and certainly understand Costa Rica as a result, but Nigeria?
Maravilla, thanks for the alert. I will go schedule it to record right away. I was actually referring to Jews, Hindus and Blacks in the USA because this post is about US Customs and the reason for their right to search electronics.
I will watch that special, however. Have you seen it yet? If not, please try to watch it and we can compare our take of it after its completion.
Pura Vida!
As a Brit, living in Canada and about to retire to Costa Rica, may I offer some insights to this discussion?
The original topic was the Homeland Security issue… I think this IS an attack on civil liberties and another step to keep the American people “in place”.
I have no problems with tightening security, but to have such sweeping rules is going too far. Airlines have to send passenger lists to the TSA prior to take off if the plane is on route to or over American air space. Say a flight from Germany is taking off for New York. This is an 8 hour flight… more than enough time to cross – reference the passenger list against ALL known lists the Government has. If then the computer spews out somebody or bodies that are “suspicious” then detain them on arrival and check their “stuff”.
If someone is acting suspicious then, sure check them out too… but have reasonable cause to act, not just because…Here’s a question… In the political arena… how come there are just two candidates for President? Why is it there are only two parties running? Most countries in the world that I have experienced elections in, there are usually four, five even more parties running, Why is that?
There have been lots of comments made that I have both agreed with and disagreed with but that is the essence of freedom of speech and the REAL democracy. It makes me sad that the 360 million Americans can only have two choices to head a government. Notice I didn’t say run… that is done by the Administration. The President is just the hero or fall-guy for their efforts.
In MY opinion, I think GWB has been railroaded by corporate America and the military into the mess the US is in now. It will take someone with enormous intestinal fortitude to right the wrongs done… Neither of the candidates in my opinion has it. It will, unfortunately be “more of the same…” no matter who gets in.
Either candidate may have good ideas… but getting them implemented is another thing.
As for the “cut down the trees…” ideology, that is just plain stupid, I apologize if that offends anyone, but trees are essential to the continuance of the planet. They clean more of the pollution than we will ever do. Oh and by the way… Al Gore is just getting rich from his “crusade”. When he turns up for a speech, he insists beforehand that there will be no discussion, no questions,,, just his lop – sided views, many of which have been proved to be wrong.
Footprints… The Toyota Prius is “reported” to be eco friendly, but when you compare the Hummer H2 and Toyota Prius and EVERYTHING that goes into building them, the Hummer has a smaller footprint and it would take 20 years for the Prius to catch up, but by then it will be junk (battery life is said to be 10 years).
I feel that everything a person can do to reduce their own footprint will help, even if it’s just their own wallet!Terrorists… well what defines a terrorist. It is a noun – a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
(Source – http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/terrorist?view=uk )I would add that monetary gains are another pursuit of a terrorist too. I would say that the US is guilty of being the terrorist in their attack of Iraq… for the control of oil, not because Saddam reportedly had WMD’s.
This brings up the question “why does America or more so it’s government, think it has the “right” to invade another country?” To do so on intelligence that a country MAY pose a threat is not a good enough reason for me.
Why did the US invade a British sovereign territory when they went into Grenada? What gave them the right? I could bring up lots of other things the US government has done but this is probably not needed here.
I grew up in England where we were “terrorized” by the IRA. I was only 3 miles away from the first bombing at the army barracks occurred, I was 2 blocks away when Harrods was bombed. I passed the Chelsea barracks 5 minutes before the bomb went off… I consider myself lucky that I am still here. Did I “hate” all catholic Irishmen because of it… no, some of my best friends fall into that group. Did I hate the IRA… no, I had an understanding of their situation, but I didn’t agree with their methods. The use of violence belittles the whole process of equality and fairness. They lost lots of support by their indiscriminant bombings, but the people won in the end, because they demanded the government find a resolution, peacefully, which eventually happened. That’s what needs to happen in the US… The people need to make government more accountable for their actions or inaction as the case may be.
I’ve added enough for now… I know what I need to do to survive in this world, I just hope that other people will allow me to do that.
In life sometimes you are the dog, sometimes you are the hydrant.
Enduro
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