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sprite,
First let me say that I have no political agenda here. I’m neither out to get Bush nor an apologist. I simply want the real truth, unadorned with spin. If W actually acted unlawfully, I say go get him. Same goes for the Clintons, Tony Blair, the UN, etc. I neither have the time or the resources to fully investigate these claims and I doubt that you do either so I leave that to others more qualified. I do however believe that there are enough people out there with the resources and the agenda who would pursue what ever they could prove. We all know that it’s common in politics to make vague or baseless accusations just for the titillation factor, never having to prove anything but still gaining brownie points. Is this the case here? I don’t know. I do know that with regard to WMD’s, the Clintons, Tony Blair, the UN, Germany and many more were, and had been for some time, in agreement. Why aren’t they mentioned? If Bush lied about WMD’s then it had to be a vast global conspiracy. Why is Pelosi not interested in pursuing impeachment? Why did Congress effectively shelve the move?
At this time, they whole thing smells like a political song and dance to me. Congress (on both sides) seems to be more interested in preserving their cushy good ‘ol boys and girls club, than doing anything meaningful for the American people.You don’t need to take any time to figure out whether or not you have been lied to by Bush regarding Iraq. You just need common sense. It has become accepted by the world court of common sense that we were lied to in a fashion that was criminal since it resulted in the deaths of many people. There only remains the political will to prosecute this matter in order to preserve the sanctity of the rule of law. Of course, we will not do the right thing because the will is no longer there.
I don’t have much hope for the U.S. when the entire country beat the drums of war right along with Bush and then refuse to accept the responsibility, even for our total lack of common sense. We are at least guilty as a nation of that offense.
Lying is what governments do best. It’s always been that way and will always be that way. Read Scotty McClellan’s new book. He pretty much spells out every lie we were told that got us into an illegal war that has now — according to the Johns Hopkins Institute — cost more than a million Iraqi lives. And even in the face of the revelation of those lies, people still contend that the war was/is a good thing. Have they actually dumbed us down that much that nobody can even speak out against this atrocity? But when you do you’re labeled some lefty liberal with a hidden agenda.
Sprite, although I have a great deal of respect for the concept of common sense, I still prefer facts when it applies to legal matters. (I know, I’m a freak) “The World Court of Common Sense” can often be mistaken for the “World Court of Public Opinion”, which can be driven by emotion, personal agenda and a biased media in place of facts and therefore may not always be accurate in matters of legality, but since you brought it up, what does the court of Common Sense have to say about all the other figures (Clinton’s, Kerry, Blair, et al) who made the same ascertains, some long before GW Bush took office? If one chooses to ignore these facts, I would have no choice but to see their passion as agenda driven.
I think Maravilla’s take is more logical and fair minded in this matter. Nobody in their right mind likes war but consider these questions:
1) Was the Iraq war morally right? – A matter of personal opinion
2) Was it strategically a good move? – Only time will tell.
3) Was it good or bad for the Iraqi people? – Ask them
4) Was it legal? – Considering the wordage of 16 legally binding UNSC resolutions against Iraq, at least 30 statements from the President of the UN Security Council regarding Saddam Hussein’s continued violations of UNSCRs and the easy passage of HJ RES 114 it sounds legal to me but if there’s any doubt, that should be decided in a real court of law, not the “World Court of Public Misinformation”
But Miles, we invaded based on the presumption that Saddam was an imminent threat to the US after they tried desperately to link Mohammed Atta to Iraqi security, which in the end turned out to be a bogus link and they were never able to prove it, but of course that was never leaked to mainstream media. Saddam was a menace to his own people, that goes without saying, but he was never an imminent threat to the US. Why didn’t we invade Saudi Arabia since 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudis? Again, I hark back to Scott McC’s book which itemizes the chain of lies of who told what to whom and how other nations were convinced that this invasion was a good idea. And if it all boils down to what bio weapons he may have had or what he did to the Kurds, let’s not forget who supplied him with those things when he was in our favor.
Miles,
If morality is a matter of personal opinion, then what do you call someone who has no personal opinion as to whether Bush lied or not? Immoral?“Only time will tell”? I don’t know what time frame you live in, but most people live in the present. And the vast majority of the Iraquis are suffering horribly in the present.
I suspect they don’t care about time telling them anything they don’t already know.The Iraquis have already spoken as to whether or not they are enjoying the occupation. They are definitely NOT.
Legality, in your own words, is for the legal experts. So let’s have this impeachment.
Hola Maravilla,
Estoy en su lado! I was defending you in your comment to leave the US (which I understand completely!)and from the guy who responded to you was totally out of line in my opinion by telling you how to act in Costa Rica.
Your comments are very profound and I enjoy reading your take on things! Keep it up! We need more people like you in the world!
Saludos y desea mucha suerte en sus empenos! (Sorry don’t have accent keys on my laptop!) Best of luck to you in your endeavors!
Maravilla,
You make some good points and we are mostly in agreement.Sprite ,
Your statement below strikes me as an angry personal attack disguised as legitimate banter. Perhaps I’m mistaken. Furthermore, you have combined two of my unrelated statements together in order to do so. Let me help you out. The morality statement had zero to do with Bush lying or not. It was about the war itself.. If you have to twist my words to make your point then you have a weak argument.
“If morality is a matter of personal opinion, then what do you call someone who has no personal opinion as to whether Bush lied or not? Immoral? “
One can have opinions all day long but facts are facts.
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As for your second non argument you have done it again. You’ve combined two unrelated points in order to challenge me. My “time will tell” statement was with regard to the strategic value of the long term effects of the change in Iraq and its effect on the region. It had nothing to do with my question “was it good for the Iraqi people.” “Only time will tell”? I don’t know what time frame you live in, but most people live in the present. And the vast majority of the Iraquis are suffering horribly in the present.I suspect they don’t care about time telling them anything they don’t already know.”
I have no problem with respectful disagreement but either you don’t understand my point of view or you’re so passionate that little details like what I really said are not important to you.
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As for your closing line;
“Legality, in your own words, is for the legal experts. So let’s have this impeachment”
That’s OK. Investigate away but remember, the accused must be found guilty before the hanging in this country.
PS I’ve noticed that you’ve chosen to remain silent as to the shared culpability of Clinton, Blair and everyone else who may have “lied” about WMD’s. Why is that?
Respectfully,
MilesAnybody who supported the Iraq war is culpable of either duplicity in the name of self serving political gain or of stupidity or of being naive or apathetic.
I am not angry at any individual. I am disappointed at having to come to the conclusion that my country is a floundering empire populated and governed by greedy, uncaring and mostly ignorant citizens. People deserve the government they get.While I probably hate George Bush as much as anyone who hasn’t actually lost a family member to his idiotic war for higher oil prices, this isn’t the time to start impeachment procedings. We have enough on our hands to get a sane leader elected before America is completely lost. By all appearances, it seems that the right wing nuts who have foisted this incompetent buffoon onto us for the past seven plus years are discouraged and not as fired up to vote as they’ve been in the past two elections. One would hope that they realize that they aren’t bright enough to participate in a democracy and leave voting to people who actually read newspapers and monitor news sources with an eye to filtering out propaganda.
There are some encouraging news items making the rounds. First, America’s image is improving slightly around the world. The reason for this is that GW’s term is approaching its end. It will take a ton of work to restore the world’s perception of our country to the level that it was immediately following September 11. The second piece of good news is the Supreme Court’s decision to extend habeus corpus to the inmates at Guantanamo. As many problems as America has, we still have our Constitution. I won’t completely give up on our nation as long as that document stands. Of course a one vote swing could have produced a completely different picture. That’s why this next election is so important and why we shouldn’t distract ourselves with an impeachment circus.
Let’s face it. George Bush has eroded the Constitution with warrantless arrests, extraordinary renditions, signing statements that repudiate laws passed by Congress, the wiretapping of American citizens, torture, and god knows what other treasons. Terrorists can’t destroy America by blowing up buildings every ten years or by killing the heroes that Bush sends into harm’s way. Buildings can be rebuilt and even the agony of lost lives eases over time. The way to destroy America is to destroy our Constitution. Under George Bush the terrorists have made some progress toward that end and he has proved to be their most useful tool.
Great post! I wish everyone had so much sense and understanding of what’s really been happening to our country.
I have given up. Goodbye USA, hello Costa Rica. My move has more to do with a desire for some adventure with the Costa Rican experience than with disgust for the U.S. but……
Who says our constitution still stands?It only ever stood intact for a very short period after its adoption anyway. Important bits have recently been tossed out…again. They can be replaced again, too. We know this because it has happened many times in the past. (Presidents John Adams, Roosevelt, Wilson, etc) So the sanctity of our constitution is repeatedly violated and americans for the most part have always accepted this. Like I said, we deserve the governments we get. Relative morality and relative governing principles seem to be what people want. After all, according to some, morality, and justice, is just a matter of opinion
sprite,
At last, something we agree on! I too love Costa Rica but due to extreme financial difficulties, I can’t move yet. While I appreciate your passion for your point of view, I would prefer a debate where calling others stupid just because they have another opinion wasn’t in the mix.We can all gain much if we would at least respectfully disagree. The US government system is full of checks and balances to make corrections and as long as that stands, we’ll be OK. Like you, my desire for CR is not anti-US but pro-Costa Rica. I wish you well and hope I can join you there.maravilla,
Though we may not always agree fully, you are a joy to banter with!editor,
While we also may not agree fully on some points, I enjoyed you post. It was well written and you made some very good and valid points (in my humble opinion). Thank you! I personally don’t hate anyone for political reasons, even if their politics and actions disgust me. Keep in mind 2 things. Bush’s support came from more than just the fringe crazys and there are pleanty of fringe whackos on the left too. Personally, I cannot get on board with fringe groups from either side. Some say tolorance for another point of view and being open to considering them is a sign of weakness. I respectfully disagree.Pura Vida to all!!!
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