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It was good to read that the government of CR is finally going to do something about this area, but it may be too late for the largest marine turtle in the world which can be 2 meters long and for the other sea turtles that nest in these beaches. The leatherback (Baula) came onto those beaches and also onto Playa Langosta one after another not so very long ago, sometimes a few coming out of the ocean at the same time. They were returning to the beaches they had been born in and you could go out on any night during their egg laying season and actually sit next to a leatherback as she went about the long and arduous task of making a nest, depositing her eggs and then closing the nest out before heading back out to sea. A full moon and the luminescent phytoplancton which made the estuary water and your wet feet light up were always added bonuses. Today, the same story no longer holds true and you’re lucky if you get to see a turtle after sitting watch for a few nights. The drop in numbers have been enormous and I can only hope that this preservation effort will actually have the same success that the Lapa Roja (Red Macaw) met in the Corcovado area. That species was also almost gone from the area and conscientious conservation brought it back in force so that now you can actually enjoy seeing RED in the skies, in the trees of Carate, Jimenez and much of the surrounding areas. Let’s hope history repeats itself with the Baula and that a few economic interests don’t send this amazing and prehistoric creature into our textbooks and out of our sight forever…
Is it just me, or is $800 per meter a little high on the buyout? I’m not a big fan of expropriation. We’ve seen what “Eminent Domain” laws have done here in recent years. If Costa Rica could increase the size of buildable lots to possibly 100 acres or more that might accomplish similar results with less cost to the country. Either way, at least they are taking steps toward preservation.
This is a beach area, but it does sound high to me–Scott may have more recent figures on this. It doesn’t matter the price CR offers, it has landed them in international courts whenever the owners are foreigners and I’m sure this will not be the exception. The development in the area has almost made this already endangered species disappear from here. God knows, they can’t take Playa Langosta since the hotel was built there so they need to take what they can and hope this species can recuperate from so many years of chaos. It’s not just the lights that keep the turtles away, its the general activity in the beaches, getting stuck in fishing nets along the way and contamination of the waters. Once they do make it to the beach they can still be poached for their meat, their eggs can be poached by other animals & to be sold within the local population. The odds of a baby turtle making to the water from the next and then making it to adulthood are really slim which is why so many eggs need to be fertilized in hopes that 1 or 2 (if that) may get to reproduce and continue their life cycle.
I understand your point of using zoning to keep development down, but that would only take the land away from Ticos and put it in the hand of big foreign investors. I don’t think that’s necessary. I think they need to decide where development should take place and how because until very recently, it’s been pretty much a free for all and there’s a price to pay for that.
Face it … CR community leadership leaves a lot to be desiered and the best community leaders have been forigners. Take Samara for example – who is trying to save the aquafers – forigners. Who is responsible for zoning – Ticos.
If Ticos cared a bit more about their community on a local community level – we would not have this problem. You know me – I am pro Tico, however I have never been afraid to call a spade a spade. Ticos are short sighted, “take what you can get now and get out” seems to be the majority motto. Well I hope this changes and I have seen some reasons lately to be catiously optomistic.
Hey take it up with the goverment that cannot even produce a comprehensive plan for the Liberia airport – let alone individual plano reguladors for each beach area. Zoning is not complicated. I have seen a Riverserside county zoning map – which is prboally the same size of all the costal areas of CR, be developed in a year.
Since Ticos are not proactive in general, they always pay a higher price to correct what happens from their lack of action and their obvious inability to even define the rules let alone enforce them.
Love it or leave it. Its only a matter of years now and the way things are going if the concerned Gringos do not really step in and protect the enviornment then the proverbil S— house goes up in flames. If the Gringo steps in, the xenophobic Tico goverment offical is sure to throw them out of the country.
So what are you going to do.
I’ll tell you what – go butt-end in debt like they did for the Caja etc and make a plan for the whole country based on measurement – X amount from this area is “this” – X amount of this area is “that” – then when developers want to develop saddle them with the topography and the infrastructure costs – thats how they do it in the US mas o menos, so developers would not be unfamilar with the scheme. And the end price goes to the consumer.
This is perfect – less development because of higher end product costs means less peole and that means – more monkeys! Hey what did you come here for. To bad the monkeys run the goverment, they need to be back in the jungles with their realitives, not making important decisions. Once again – they act like kids playing grown-up games.
Keep your expectations low and you will not be disappointed!!!!!
What say you David M?
Let me remind you that “gringos” as you put it, are not the only foreigners in Costa Rica and US citizens are NOT the only people struggling for its conservation–many locals and other expats have done wonderful things for CR conservation and sustainable development there! The US is not the center of all that is bad and it’s not the center of all that is good. You’re right to complain that Ticos haven’t done enough, it took many a long time to realize the jewel they had. Unfortunately, many species of animals & plants have paid the price not to mention the amounts of deforestation that has been “gained” by such negligence. May I remind you that much of the environmental damage was not created by Ticos, but by foreign transnationals throughout CR not just in Guanacaste. That said, we can all be part of making a change. When Stone Container Corp, a US comapny which at the time was the 2nd largest paper company in the world and they called themselves Ston in CR, wanted to install a wood chipping plant and their own private dock in Punta Estrella (inside the Golfo Dulce–Zona Sur), the local community, a brave environmental NGOs, students, media, Greenpeace and the local Golfito municipal gov’t came together to change that. Mind you, who knows if the Muni’s official would have gotten involved if it wasn’t that his own mother-in-law was directly threatened by Ston workers, but for whatever reason, he got involved. It was a long and painful struggle and in the end a few of my friends ended up mysteriously dead a month after we won that battle, but when people want to change things they can. I can assure you that there were people from many countries working with very little resources to make that change and most were Ticos that knew how to organize an effective opposition and wouldn’t take no for answer. It was also Tico officials in the SJ central government (Contraloria) that had to reject an already signed agreement with that company after our questioning of it, but they took a lot of heat for helping us find the illegalities and standing up for what was right. Don’t be so quick to put all Ticos in the same hand basket as some that have sold or tried to sell their country for a trip to Miami, they are NOT all the same…A very wise man said, “be the change you want to see in this world”–so be a part of that Diego and remember, we can’t make those changes alone, but we certainly can each add our drop of conservation to it. Pura Vida!
Diego:
You stated and I quote: “To bad the monkeys run the goverment, they need to be back in the jungles with their realitives, not making important decisions. Once again – they act like kids playing grown-up games.”
It’s easy to find faults about civil servants and politicians in every country – don’t get me started – however, I would like to encourage you to speak in slightly more respectful terms about the people in this country.
Scott Oliver – Founder
WeLoveCostaRica.comWhile government representatives are also people, their behavior as representatives is ALWAYS open to public criticism. At least in democracies it is supposed to work that way. A healthy general DISrespect for government is usually a sign that government is not doing its job properly.
Actually, I sometimes have MORE respect for monkeys than I do for most politicians and many civil servants…in my own country. I do not know enough about CR to have any developed opinion but I am reading a lot of criticism from both Expats AND Ticos about civil servant AND citizen attitudes towards civic responsibilities.
People from the British Isles have a reputation for being VERY civil and calm in the face of frustration and while that kind of attitude is always welcome everywhere, it sometimes seems somewhat out of place in certain areas of the world. But this IS your message board and as such, rules of the house should be followed.Sprite: Wouldn’t you agree that there is a nasty leap between being critical (which we ALL are in this forum) to being condescending and disrespectful? We all question and we all should. We’re all entitled to our own perceptions without belittling ALL because of some–I do agree with you about the real monkeys, wonderful creatures that don’t deserve to be made into an insult. Pura vida!
Hey Scott,
You know me – I love to get the blood pumping – however, after I reread what I wrote, I see it sounds racist – even though it was not meant that way. I don’t care if people are purple, orange, mauve or chartreuse. Incompetence in CR is everywhere; however I have seen a certain increase of competency lately.
Ticos, are well – Ticos! I love them for all their inconsistencies and for who they are. They are one of the nicest cultures and very fun loving. I guess it’s hard to have it all – fun loving, less ambitious – combined with competent and logical.
So I was admonished about how I write what I mean – a point well taken. It does read contrary to my intentions.
How about somebody commenting on the “answer” side of my post:
“make a plan for the whole country based on measurement – X amount from this area is “this” – X amount of this area is “that” – then when developers want to develop saddle them with the topography and the infrastructure costs – that’s how they do it in the US mas o menos, so developers would not be unfamiliar with the scheme. And the end price goes to the consumer.”
This would raise home product prices and less people would buy.
To all of Scott real estate people – would you support the “pass it on to the consumer” idea regarding saving CR greenery and species, even though it is a sure way to take air out of the market.
Listen… Do you hear anything? There seems to be a big hush out there among the real estate industry regarding a very sensible proposal.
I doubt if I will get any replies on this one – maybe it should be a topic for a thread.
“Let me remind you that “gringos” as you put it, are not the only foreigners in Costa Rica and US citizens are NOT the only people struggling for its conservation–many locals and other expats have done wonderful things for CR conservation and sustainable development there!”
Rebaragon – To me Gringos are any white foreigner in CR – you pick the nationality. Regardless some of the best get tossed for being too concerned. Was that a nice way of putting it?
CR gets very funny when you start to get too much recognition for your efforts and you are not Tico. It’s like a college professor who goes on vacation and the assistant steps in and does a better job, then the professor comes back and the dodod hits the fan because the assistant who really cares, has shown up the professor – who is a slacker. What happens – assistant gets fired even though the results are better for the students.
What word would you use to describe the above, Ms. Aragon. Well whatever it is apply it to the officials in the Tico government.
Condescending means to give the impression that one is superior. Well when it comes to setting rules – Gringos (Europeans, Canadian, Americans – (was that politically correct enough for you Ms. Aragon?) are all superior to Ticos. Are they not?
When it comes to genuine relationships, overall playfulness and civility – Ticos are superior to Gringos- are they not?
It’s called a Spade being called a Spade. Not enough political correctness? Political correctness for its sake – is divisive. Abuse anything, including political correctness, and it is counter productive.
The problem is balance. We need to balance away of protecting CR natural resources without creating a governmental monster. That is why I offered my solution – I have not seen one other potential solution offered here – just Ms. Aragon’s attempt to play the “Some one think they are Superior” card to stifle discussion, without adding a useful solution of her own. Through outlife you find the inferior and superior – that’s how it is – so I suggest if you want to progress, you accept that real world kinda stuff.
The “quick to be offended” card is one that is not only divisive, as we hide behind our own cultural insecurities, but it soon overwhelms all other constructive content because of the emotional attachment to social injustices done to classes and races of people – IN THE PAST. So why as a world, do we not leave it there – “In the Past” and get on with solving our important and serious problems with possible solutions.
How are we going to protect CR’s environment – anybody got ideas? Or just criticism of the messenger’s message?
Or should we leave it to the well regarded monkeys to figure out?
Rebaragon,
I completely missed the possible racist interpretation of the “monkey” reference probably because, like the author, I was more focused on his salient point of civil servant incompetency which has nothing to do with racism in CR. (As far as I can see, there is no racism in CR)
I think it is OK to critique immature behavior as monkey-like. I thought the image was amusing: a group of cariblancas and howlers in an office throwing papers up in the air turning the pages of environmental studies into a monkey game. I still think it is amusing.
Disrespectful language directed at individuals or at ethnic or racial groups is in bad taste, to put it mildly. But directed towards the ACTIONS of politicians or civil servants seems quite alright to my sensibilities. This is an american trait, to be sure and I should monitor myself when abroad. In the meantime, all we can do is cross out fingers for the leatherbacks. I am not hopeful, though, for any of us as long as human population is out of control.Sprite,
“turning the pages of environmental studies into a monkey game”
You got the gist of the article and I thought the monkey thing was appropriate and I never thought of the racist angle untill Scott’s post made me reread to to see what was the offense.
Great point on worlwide population. That is the crux of the matter.
Annoying isn’t it? When you or the people that you identify with are attacked/mocked the rest of the proposal being discussed is diminished. Human nature is funny that way…By no means was I trying to stop you from making any other point than to not make such condescending remarks and speak as if ALL Costa Ricans had never stood up for the conservation of that country. I also wanted you to realize locals may also know and act upon what is best for CR. Make no mistake, I’m a full blooded Latina and my nieces are Ticas–I may have grown up in the US and truly love many thoughts that have come from this place, but I do not appreciate racial prejudice of any sort, anywhere. It sure sounded like a citizen who thought he came from more “civilized stock” talking about the savages in Costa Rica–well, with all that “go back to the jungle where they came from” attitude, but I was very glad to read in your post that your words were not representative of your thoughts.
Bureaucracy tends to be inefficient everywhere, some places more than others. I hated spending days at Migracion and many other inefficient instances, but I also hate that under the guise of administrative/beuracratic activities, documents detailing those responsible for illegal acts committed against human beings or nuclear warheads being taken for rides above my head and the heads of other tax paying citizens are filed away/lost/mismanaged in the US so that it can be swept under the table. I also hate that my elderly parents, after having worked in the US and for US interests abroad, get stuck in the middle of some Medicare nightmare that turns out to be a bureaucratic mistake and manages to frustrate them for months on end.
As much as I love Ticos/as, if we’re going to call a spade a spade, to say that there is no racial prejudice there would not be acceptable to most Nicaraguans or black citizens living in CR–they have had to bear the brunt of it. You even mentioned the xenophobia that can be felt from time to time and thankfully it’s not felt by most of the population because they are generally very easy going–but is that not a form of prejudice? I won’t go into a lot of details, but even though DNA studies have proven how Ticos/as are truly a mix of many racial groups, most Central Valley Ticos/as would deny any black heritage & certainly Nicaraguan ancestry even though Guanacaste belonged to Nicaragua and blacks were in CR way before the building of the railroad. I’m grateful that this prejudice is not aimed at me, but it doesn’t make it any less real because it’s aimed at other groups. Thankfully, not ALL Ticos are like that, but be assured it’s there.
As far as the zoning proposal, I really don’t know enough about it to comment on particulars, but if you live in the area–work towards the goals you think would benefit that community. In general terms, I can tell you that conscientious and enforceable zoning laws could do wonders for CR, but they have some issues to get thru besides determining true sustainable uses: 1) it turns out that a few years ago they found that there are more square meters of owned land registered in the Registro Nacional than CR happens to have as a country…that makes it difficult (especially for the central gov’t) to delineate areas such as lots/blocks necessary to then identify which areas are under which particular zoning use–but I do believe they are working on this, 2) the central gov’t and municipal gov’ts are always jockeying for power which means that whatever the muni does, might just be overturned by SJ–especially when big interests are at play. Frankly, I think you stand a better chance of getting something done from the muni’s side due to problem #1. If the community sees a benefit, they will back up the proposal, but whatever is being proposed by you or others needs to communicated and work together to achieve those goals. They may not seem like much to you, but Ticos/as can be very proactive if they see the reason and are not treated as children or monkeys in their own country (I promise never to mention your insult again if you promise not to use it again…) Of course, any side of this issue will have to find a way to truly show the benefits to the community or you will be on your own. The benefits need to be balanced–most people can recognize fairness a mile away…
Diego, One of the few times I’m not pounding my monitor because of something you said,lol, is agreeing with this point about developers. They should provide the access road from the main road or highway to the development. I’ve seen roads in Jaco that have been destroyed by heavy machinery and trucks driven to the construction site. As one expat local put it, “this is the only country where you see paved roads get turned into dirt roads.” The developers should be more responsive, and the gavernment should hold their feet to the fire to make necessary infrastructure improvements to the community in which they build. The extra cost would most assuredly be borne by the purchasers of the homes or condos, But who does not want better infrastructure?
My two cents about the monkey remark. It was over the top, even though you like to stir things up. Sometimes we all get a little carried away.
It sure is annoying when you try to have a conversation about how to resolve an important issue and some people cannot leave their vacated culture behind them. I am sure that all the Irish people will be up in arms when someone uses the term “Patty wagon” as it was named after the police vehicles that used to haul away the drunk Irish (Pats) on Friday night. Grow up and get off your divisive horse. You see things separate because you want to see things separate. You derive power from the race card.
“Over the top” Alfred – What was that??? – Some veiled monkey joke about monkeys swinging over the top of other monkeys, while they are swinging over the top of trees! What, you have the NERVE to make a sarcastic monkey comment.
I am ashamed of you Alfred, please have the decency to compromise your integrity and say all the nice things we want to hear without regard for the truth or I am sure Ms Aragon will take away your membership to the ACLU, Young Democrats, National Organization of Women (or more commonly know as the Femanazis) or the United Negro College Fund. Hell they may not let you in to see Sicko or other such important flicks…
And you sure as S— do not want to offend the politically righteous among us – Now do you?
Or you get the reverse condescension – “Make no mistake, I’m a full blooded Latina and my nieces are Ticas blah blah blah – including the –I may have grown up in the US and truly love many thoughts that have come from this place, but I do not appreciate racial prejudice of any sort, anywhere. It sure sounded like a citizen who thought he came from more “civilized stock” talking about the savages in Costa Rica–well, with that entire “go back to the jungle where they came from” attitude, but I was very glad to read in your post that your words were not representative of your thoughts
“I may have grown up in the US” – Was that an apology for growing up in a place that probably taught you on the tax payer’s dime how to read and write – how dare you.
More civilized stock? Savages in Costa Rica – wow, why don’t you just read some concentration camp connotations into it while you are at it. (this is where the little nauseated face goes).
Some people are the queen of the “hide behind” or “lets be divided by” our race club. It’s narrow minded and divisive. But what has kept minorities seen as less capable is the fact that they look at themselves as minorities (powerless inference).
Nice little dity about Tico racism against there own too. What a nightmare. I am sure it exists to an insignificant degree (or are you inferring that Ticos are lynching Nicas – I can read things in to!). But like anything else the more you focus on it the more of it you get.
Anybody can read anything into whatever – if they try hard enough. So, I am sure your tirade against racism is all too politically correct and righteous, but since it is done in your self defense it is vain and boring to me, not to mention very shallow and out of place. You should be ashamed of playing the race card to defend yourself and all those hard things your family has gone through at the hands of the wicked US government to defend your ideology.
Reminds me of the first OJ trail. We could call this one the Monkey Trial. Thicken up your skin and get real. You claim to be Latina but you write and think Gringa/Latina probably depending on how it serves you or what company you are in. You are the perfect definition of why I don’t date Gringas – no matter their ethnicity.
“Promise not to mention my insult” – LOL – Nice try. Sure I will make you a promise and it has all the sincerity of a Del Rey girl talking to her man at 2 am on a Friday night. Pathetic.
If you think your comments were only offensive to me and that I’m being self serving, then why don’t you go to a CR town meeting, the park, heck, go to a church and let all of those nice Ticos/as you say you like so much know exactly how you express yourself about them. Let’s see if they consider your remarks anything but rude and racist or if they laugh it off and welcome you into their circle of friends. Where did you learn that it was funny to be a racist p** and denigrate others! I have not pulled any racist card, you brought out the deck! Frankly, I don’t see any more important issue than the veiled racism when commenting about bureaucratic actions, but taking it out on CR people. So, I guess after all your words DID in fact express your underlying beliefs not only about your assumption of the inferiority of Ticos, but your tirade against organizations that defend the rights of minorities and women’s groups alike which shows your disdain for them as well. Gee, do you consider anyone but yourself not a retrograde –’cause you say you like Ticos and look how you refer to them? It all sounds like an incredibly bitter tirade to me. Oh and if you seem to have such intimate knowledge of how prostitutes speak to men at those hours of the morning it must be because what spews out of your mouth might also be considered nauseating by woman that do not need your money to put food on the table and wouldn’t give you the time of day. Don’t blame women that run from you on being “gringa”, blame it on the fact that most women that have done that can see an a**** and have the economic independence to run the other way. As for my writing, I do it as a human being that has experienced many things in my life and lived many places throughout Latin America and the US. Considering my father worked for the US gov’t in Venezuela, paid his taxes in the US and I have been nothing but respectful of the people in the US–I see no problem with having received an education in the US nor having paid for higher education in CR and in the US. Let’s see who’s playing the insulted one now as if I was bashing the US–my first response to you was clear, I don’t think that all bad nor all good stems from the US and I do happen to love many things that have come from here, but I don’t condone many others–Mostly, because what strikes me as inappropriate, does so when I’m in the US or if I was in Timbuktu. What’s wrong is wrong anywhere and your insensitive remarks are wrong if they’re uttered in the US or if they’re uttered in CR or Japan. If you would have made that remark about any other culture, I would have also said something because racism is one of the most entrenched forms of ignorance that a person can suffer from and unfortunately it also causes much suffering. Just to be real clear, I did not make any denigrating allusions about the prejudice that is present in CR, I just stated that it exists because not one person, not one country is perfect–we all have great qualities and ALL of us have other qualities that are not so great. Flaws can be addressed without going for the jugular Mr. Diego and that doesn’t mean you don’t love a country, respect it or see the beauty in its people. When flaws are addressed respectfully, it means that you’re not looking to strip away someone else’s dignity in the process of your remark. My sincerity stands, I can stand in front of any Tico/a and say everything I’ve just said to you in this forum– something Diego, you wouldn’t dare do in front of a lot of Ticos I know anywhere in that beautiful country….Ticos are mostly really nice people, but don’t ever think they’re spineless–they most certainly have more courage than to be offensive and then act as the victim! By the way, thank you for referring to me as Ms. Aragon, because I certainly try to keep it as cordial and distant as possible with people that are as insolent as you!
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