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Waggoner
I am disappointing in you really 🙂 you bring up a point regarding we have been paying the lowest taxes since 1932
taxes have become so ambiguous and is in everything you do its absurd
in 1913 there was 400 pages of the U.S tax code
in 2012 there are 73608 pages to the tax codedo you really think we are paying less taxes 🙂
taxes are everywhere whether its federal, state, local, goods and services, you cannot wipe your ass without paying some tax.
it’s simple robbery. inflation is robbery, fiat currency is robbery. but again most people are just cruising along.
and we continue as a nation to kick that can down the road further.
the middle class carry so much debt because they are in the middle my friend and the easiest to milk and pilferage.if your a W2- working stiff then you get the worst shaft because they just take it from you and in the end you just get used to it.
looks at these stats.. and this is where all your hard earned money goes. this is why more and more people are just opting to NOT PARTICIPATE.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_snapshot/
http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=290&cat=6' defer onload='
We have 4.1% of our population (15,000,000 people) on welfare, 15% of our population (46,500,000) using food stamps, 61,572,000 receiving social security or supplemental security, 10.8 million receiving disability, 12.7 million receiving unemployment, and 47,672,971 receiving Medicare.
[b]Now, if my rusty math skills don’t fail me, that totals almost 200,000,000 out of our 313,000,000 people, or a full 60%+ of our population (!) who depend on the government for some type of financial aid
[/b]
really staggeringactually it makes me sick to my stomach.. and after this post because of health reasons I cannot speak of this any further :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:
and to top this off
when after all the risks and sacrifices and even maybe after a few bankruptcies you finally get a business running and are successful we have a president that tells you
government helped you be successful :D:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=192oEC5TX_Q
[quote=”waggoner41″][quote=”loraine”]
Fairness? 50% of Americans pay NO federal tax. How is that fair? Why not a flat tax so EVERYONE gets to pay their ‘fair’ share? If these gains get taxed as ordinary income, that’ll go from 15% up to 25% and higher. That’s more than a few dollars. And what are the stats on increasing the taxes on every millionaire–doesn’t it come out to an extra $85 billion in tax revenue or something like that–enough for 8 days of what we spend. [/quote]
The taxes Americans really pay, in two graphs
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-taxes-americans-really-pay-in-two-graphs/2012/04/16/gIQA6o4yLT_blog.html
Why do half of all Americans pay no federal income taxes?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/why-do-half-of-all-americans-pay-no-federal-income-taxes/2011/07/11/gIQA8olBuI_blog.html
If you take into account the total tax burden, most everyone is paying, and they’re paying surprisingly similar effective rates. And it’s easy enough to understand why someone struggling to make it on $30,000 a year would chafe at paying 25 percent to the tax man in a way that someone cruising along at $500,000 wouldn’t
[quote=”loraine”]If you personally were in a deficit position, would you charge up your credit cards to continue to live as you desire or would you cut back on your spending to make ends meet? [/quote]
That is precisely why the middle class carries so much debt. Everyone wants to keep up with the Joneses and own the newest of whatever is on the market rather than planning a budget and sticking to it.[quote=”loraine”]I live in NYS and we are taxed to death (and in one of the highest property taxed counties in the US). When one of two pay no federal tax, there is something wrong there. [/quote]
You are confusing local county taxes which finance only local issues. If you don’t like the tax structure there you can move to Alabama or Mississippi where the taxes are substantially lower and the infrastructure is substandard.
[quote=”loraine”]The only people who think this tax structure is fair are those who are paying nothing…50%.[/quote]
Read the citations that I provided to find out how wrong you are.
[/quote][quote=”waggoner41″]
The vast majority of us don’t hold your anarchist views.I think we all know that there is a certain amount of waste in the federal budget but what are you going to do? You can move to a desert island where you don’t have to put up with any taxes. If you need a road you build it.[/quote]
Waste?! You either missed my point or just don’t accept the facts.
Income tax does NOT go towards maintaining the infrastructure. It goes right into the bankers’ pockets. Period. We didn’t have an income tax before 1913 and practically nobody paid income tax until the 1950’s. We have been scammed for a century now and too many people are STILL
brainwashed into believing that taxes are used to benefit the population. The Federal Income tax is nothing more than an illegal transfer of wealth by use of force from working people to the idle rich. Please wake up.[quote=”DavidCMurray”]
The further question, for which I’m confident sprite and loraine have a glib answer, is just what of that awful government spending you’d like to see eliminated. Next time you fly to Costa Rica, ask yourself whether you’d rather do so without the publicly funded airport, the government supervision of aircraft maintenance, or air traffic control. Myself, I don’t care if you opt out of all three, but only on days when [u]you[/u] fly. Me? I’ll pay my taxes to maintain the roads so I’m not driving across people’s lawns to get to the airport.
One could, of course, argue that we should eliminate all governmental support for human beings. So make the argument, loraine and sprite. Let’s hear your arguments in favor of eliminating Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, family support for active duty service members, SSI for the disabled. I’m confident you can make a convincing argument but what you cannot do is make such an argument without at the same time exposing your total lack of conscience.
[/quote]Why are you claiming that social security, Medicaid and publicly funded airports are things that income tax pays for? Those things are funded by separate taxes, some of which is strictly gotten from taxes paid by corporations, import duties and other sources.
You are spouting the IRS propaganda we have all been taught to believe. Until you get out of that paradigm, you will not be able to use rational thought.
personally, i would like my tax dollars NOT to go to funding more illegal wars, weapons, death squads, dictators, coups d’etats, banking scandals, criminal buy-out for the crooks, etc.
I know how to fix it !
Gather your families here and we’ll get together and pray for an asteroid strike on The Great Satan.:shock:[quote=”Doug Ward”]I know how to fix it !
Gather your families here and we’ll get together and pray for an asteroid strike on The Great Satan.:shock:[/quote]DUH!!
What an [b]Articulate[/b] and [b]Intelligent[/b] comment.
“It is absolutely NOT true, loraine, that 50% of Americans pay no federal tax. What 50% of Americans do not pay is federal INCOME tax. They still pay all the payroll taxes that everyone else who earns up to about $103,000 per year pay. Those who earn over that $103k threshold pay no additional payroll taxes. So the burden of payroll taxes, which are the flat taxes you so admire, fall most heavily on the poorest and exempt the richest.”
I understand it’s Federal Income tax…the original 7.65%, however, is fica w/h, isn’t it? I think it used to be broken down 6.2% for social security and 1.45% for medicare, yes? Does that money go and stay in those programs? And do those who choose not to work pay payroll taxes (fica w/h). And doesn’t the bad, mean corporations have to match those w/h? I’m not talking talking about p/r taxes–fica/med.
I want to know where my fed w/h is going and why I have to pay it and others don’t? I have to pay a mortgage, property taxes, health insurance, etc.,and ‘choose’ to live beneath my means and sacrifice. Why am I doing that again?
How much does rich GE pay in taxes?
You know, I don’t have a problem with ‘social’ programs…welfare, food stamps, etc. But they should be working for these benefits. If you want this stuff for free, then you can go and work it off whether it be in a homeless shelter, a church, cleaning a park, burger king etc. It gives them a sense of purpose in life as well giving something back for what their getting. And, yes, i would subsidize daycare to get these girls out there working.
I’ll say it…it burns me to see an 18 year old girl walking down the street with 4 kids under the age of 5. Rather than sitting at home, it would make more sense to me to have her daycare subsidized and have her working 40 hours per week. I think she might appreciate her money a little more.
And, while I completely understand the one poster about encouraging his parents to get food stamps…I don’t disagree with you at all. they should. Because they have put into the system when others haven’t, they deserve it. But, but, but…this is the way this country is heading…well, everyone gets ‘it’, so why shouldn’t I? this is not directed toward you at all. it is more as a whole where those that work for their money and pay so much in Federal ‘income’ tax are starting to get really angry about the taxes they pay, when they see so many around them, getting something for nothing. it’s a mob mentality…I want something, too.
There is a big difference between poor, lazy and those that just take advantage.
it’s like a bad employee who takes advantage. It so lowers the standard. The good employees see what the dead weight is doing and getting compensated to boot, that the good employee becomes resentful and starts doing the same. And one bad apple has spoiled the whole bunch.
I don’t want to see the elderly or the disabled ever eating cat food, but I also don’t want to see an 18 year old with 4 kids in tow living on welfare. The old folks have paid their dues–and now they will be paying more once their various taxes go up. How much more will the able bodied be paying in entitlements–nothing?
99 weekers…they couldn’t find ‘a’ job in 2 years? I’ve been unemployed and it doesn’t take that long to find another. Well, unless you were making 100k and still expect to make that.
A flat tax is fair. There are those who pay nothing and those who pay a lot. Level the playing field and that way no one is getting something for nothing. Plus eliminates the tax cheats with those creative tax returns.
Call me simple, call me simplistic, but things cannot go on as they are. I am by no means wealthy (other than in spirit) or in the 1%, but playing Robinhood doesn’t work. As long as we continue to ‘give’ with expectation of nothing in return from those who take, we will continue to have these problems. It will (already has) create a lazy, stagnant, me,me,me society.
Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. That goes for everybody!!! He was before my time, but makes a lot of sense to me. Where did that sentiment ever go? Now it’s…me,me,me. I expect, I expect, I expect.
This was too long of a post…sorry…we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m personally done debating this issue…back to CR stuff for me!
In a Senate committee hearing on a jobs bill back in the late 1970s, Senator Hubert Humphrey said it best. “We’re not going to let people starve, so we might as well have clean streets as dirty ones.” Makes a great deal of sense. It’s a position I’ve always agreed with.
Despite your conviction, loraine, a flat tax is, by definition, [b]un[/b]fair in that it imposes most heavily on the poor who can least afford it. Who is most adversely affected: the famiy living on 78% of $200,000 or the family living on the same 78% of $20,000?
Now, in your spare time, why don’t you actually go out into the community and join the legions of job seekers, whether you’re employed, retired or whatever, just to see what it’s like. Let’s see you compete with five of the unemployed for every available job. When job seekers exceed jobs available by a factor of five, the likelihood of any individual being hired is pretty slim. Go try and let us know how you do.
Now, in your spare time, why don’t you actually go out into the community and join the legions of job seekers, whether you’re employed, retired or whatever, just to see what it’s like. Let’s see you compete with five of the unemployed for every available job. When job seekers exceed jobs available by a factor of five, the likelihood of any individual being hired is pretty slim. Go try and let us know how you do.
[/quote]A side note…
Regarding entitlements…we toured a local Salvation Army a couple of years back and were so impressed by it. This was a program devoted to single mothers. They would only take you into the program (let you live there), if you agreed to go back to school and get your diploma. They would then help you prepare for work. We were all so impressed. There was an expectation to that entitlement. Needless to say, it gave these girls hope and determination to better themselves and the program has been extremely successful. No something for nothing there.
Doesn’t regard fed tax…but my county/city/school tax. I pay those every quarter and these go to schools, roads, etc. I just got a $280 add-on to my bill for street ‘oiling’. Huh? I thought my other taxes covered that? When I asked why they were charging this fee every few years to fix a perfectly good road, they said, “oh, look at it like sealing your driveway”. What? I said “I would never pay that to seal my drivway, so why do I have to pay it to seal yours. Why isn’t this coming out of my other taxes”. Not much of an answer given.
Have a nice day all wherever you may be!
Now, in your spare time, why don’t you actually go out into the community and join the legions of job seekers, whether you’re employed, retired or whatever, just to see what it’s like. Let’s see you compete with five of the unemployed for every available job. When job seekers exceed jobs available by a factor of five, the likelihood of any individual being hired is pretty slim. Go try and let us know how you do.
[/quote]My dear friend, I do. Because, you see, I am unemployed. I know what it’s like. Touche.
You have a great day in sunny Costa Rica, and I will continue to pay my taxes and my bills…my fair share. God bless!
[quote=”loraine”] Because, you see, I am unemployed. I know what it’s like. Touche.
You have a great day in sunny Costa Rica, and I will continue to pay my taxes and my bills…my fair share. God bless![/quote]
Hmmm . . . I guess I don’t get it. If getting “a” job is so easy for each of the millions of unemployed, why are [u]you[/u] still unemployed? Why have you not gone out and gotten “a” job?
And, as for paying my taxes and bills, I’m right along there with you. So what’s you point?
Most of the above responses are good examples of the results of brainwashing and indoctrination of an entire nation. I can state a fact in a simple sentence such as “Income tax is not used to pay for infrastructure” and people will not see it because their brains are trained to skip over such truths and move on to irrelevant, nonsense arguments such as “what is the fairest way to be robbed, flat tax or incremental tax?”
A brain using critical thinking will stop as soon as it sees what could be a salient fact. It first determines its veracity and then asks “why should I let somebody take my money who has not earned it and will only use it against my interests?”
I am watching people all around me in some kind of trance, asleep or hypnotized by the matrix, trapped in a false paradigm of left-right politics, a failing fiat currency economy and the belief that large powerful central governments can be brought to heel and made to serve us.
Uh-huh. So if income and other taxes are not used to pay for infrastructure, how do you suppose the asphalt streets you use to get to the bridges you use to cross the rivers were paid for? And if all the taxes that are collected go to the bankers then it “follows” that the police and firefighters are all bankers, right?
Are you off your meds?
[quote=”DavidCMurray”][quote=”waggoner41″][loraine wrote] If you personally were in a deficit position, would you charge up your credit cards to continue to live as you desire or would you cut back on your spending to make ends meet? [/quote]
[b]And waggoner41 replied,[/b] “That is precisely why the middle class carries so much debt. Everyone wants to keep up with the Joneses and own the newest of whatever is on the market rather than planning a budget and sticking to it.”[quote=”DavidCMurray”]But it’s more than that, waggoner. While loraine’s position is understandable, if painfully superficial, it simply doesn’t work in the real world. [/quote]
Obviously, even with what I know about economics, my ideas will not work in the real world because the average person doesn’t bother to research what they hear or believe.[quote=”DavidCMurray”]Deficit spending is sometimes unavoidable whether it’s governmental or private. [/quote]
Whenever we commit to purchasing a home are we not committing ourselves to a form of deficit spending. As we have seen since 2006 there is no guarantee that we will end up with the value that we expected.[quote=”DavidCMurray”]Next time you fly to Costa Rica, ask yourself whether you’d rather do so without the publicly funded airport, the government supervision of aircraft maintenance, or air traffic control. [/quote]
There is also the obvious choice of traveling by car through Mexico with its cartels or by rowboat. The U.S. government does not control what happens in other countries or on the high seas.[quote=”DavidCMurray”]One could, of course, argue that we should eliminate all governmental support for human beings. So make the argument, loraine and sprite. Let’s hear your arguments in favor of eliminating Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, family support for active duty service members, SSI for the disabled. I’m confident you can make a convincing argument but what you cannot do is make such an argument without at the same time exposing your total lack of conscience. [/quote]
Conscience is for those who care what happens to anyone other than themselves. Those of us who believe that we are our brother’s keeper also understand that there are those few who will gull the system without compunction.[quote=”sprite”]I am watching people all around me in some kind of trance, asleep or hypnotized by the matrix, trapped in a false paradigm of left-right politics, a failing fiat currency economy and the belief that large powerful central governments can be brought to heel and made to serve us.[/quote]
Count the number of people who are around you or in your community or your state who believe as you do. Obviously it has not occurred to you that such a miniscule minority is not going to carry any weight whatsoever.
It is good, though, to find such comic relief among the subjects that have real meaning on this forum.
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