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[quote=”DavidCMurray”]Uh-huh. So if income and other taxes are not used to pay for infrastructure, how do you suppose the asphalt streets you use to get to the bridges you use to cross the rivers were paid for? And if all the taxes that are collected go to the bankers then it “follows” that the police and firefighters are all bankers, right?
Are you off your meds?
[/quote]Property taxes, gasoline taxes, airport and port taxes and fees, airline ticket fees, import duties, liquor and tobacco excise taxes, etc….those are the sources of support for the few things you mentioned.
I will repeat it even though your indoctrinated brain will not be able to process this; “The Federal Income tax does NOT go towards infrastructure. It goes to the bankers and the military industrial complex.”
Read it again and try to use critical thinking. Brainwashing obviously can be far more potent than any “meds” to disorient people. Until you are able to process what I wrote above about the use of income taxes, you will never be able to see what is really happening to all of us.
[quote=”waggoner41″][quote=”sprite”]I am watching people all around me in some kind of trance, asleep or hypnotized by the matrix, trapped in a false paradigm of left-right politics, a failing fiat currency economy and the belief that large powerful central governments can be brought to heel and made to serve us.[/quote]
Count the number of people who are around you or in your community or your state who believe as you do. Obviously it has not occurred to you that such a miniscule minority is not going to carry any weight whatsoever.
It is good, though, to find such comic relief among the subjects that have real meaning on this forum.
[/quote]Seeing my responses as comic relief is, I suppose, one way of deflecting the seriousness and the truth of what I am saying. It is, after all, an incredulous truth with frightening consequences, that we have been hoodwinked and thoroughly robbed and enslaved for century. But being incredulous and a minority position does not automatically make it incorrect.
“A sane person to an insane society must appear insane.” Kurt Vonnegut.[quote=”davidd”] Waggoner
I am disappointing in you really 🙂 you bring up a point regarding we have been paying the lowest taxes since 1932
taxes have become so ambiguous and is in everything you do its absurd
in 1913 there was 400 pages of the U.S tax code
in 2012 there are 73608 pages to the tax codedo you really think we are paying less taxes 🙂
My reference was to the basic tax structure. U.S. Federal Individual Income Tax Rates History, 1913-2011 (Nominal and Inflation-Adjusted Brackets)
There is no doubt that the tax code needs to be changed. Congress, over the years, has circumscribed giveaways to certain classes of society that cost the rest of us in excess payments.[quote=”davidd”] taxes are everywhere whether its federal, state, local, goods and services, you cannot wipe your ass without paying some tax.
it’s simple robbery. inflation is robbery, fiat currency is robbery. but again most people are just cruising along.
and we continue as a nation to kick that can down the road further.
the middle class carry so much debt because they are in the middle my friend and the easiest to milk and pilferage.if your a W2- working stiff then you get the worst shaft because they just take it from you and in the end you just get used to it. [/quote]
Take a look at what you are paying for with the taxes you pay then decide what it is that you feel is unnecessary. If you feel that you are unwilling to assist those who cannot do for themselves or those who are currently unemployed take your complaints to your legislators. They are the decision makers and you have voting rights if you don’t like their decisions. Although I have never participated in the Medicare programs, you would probably prefer that I didn’t receive Social Security either.[quote=”davidd”] looks at these stats.. and this is where all your hard earned money goes. this is why more and more people are just opting to NOT PARTICIPATE.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_snapshot/
http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=290&cat=6' defer onload='
We have 4.1% of our population (15,000,000 people) on welfare, 15% of our population (46,500,000) using food stamps, 61,572,000 receiving social security or supplemental security, 10.8 million receiving disability, 12.7 million receiving unemployment, and 47,672,971 receiving Medicare.
[b]Now, if my rusty math skills don’t fail me, that totals almost 200,000,000 out of our 313,000,000 people, or a full 60%+ of our population (!) who depend on the government for some type of financial aid
[/b]
really staggering [/quote]
Combining those figures does not give a true picture of who is getting assistance on your tax dollar. There are those who are getting a combination of benefits including those in the SNAP program who are required to pay for the food stamps based on income. Currently there are some 23 million out of work or under-employed maybe it would be best to cut off unemployment and welfare checks and put them on the streets because they are too lazy to look for work.
The middle class has been slipping into poverty since the 1970’s. Where were your complaints then? In the 1960’s my average annual income was above $105,000 in 2007 dollars but my final year of employment I made just under $55,000. In the 1960-s and 1979’s I was supporting six kids on my income alone but by 1984, with the kids grown and gone it required two incomes to provide enough income that the two of us could continue to live the same lifestyle.
The policies of Ronald Reagan added 36% to the debt to GDP between 1982 and 1995 and George W Bush policies added 29.11% to the debt to GDP. Where were your complaints then?
[quote=”davidd”] actually it makes me sick to my stomach.. and after this post because of health reasons I cannot speak of this any further :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:and to top this off
when after all the risks and sacrifices and even maybe after a few bankruptcies you finally get a business running and are successful we have a president that tells you
government helped you be successful :D:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=192oEC5TX_Q%5B/quote%5D
Don’t spin me your version of what Obama said in that speech. I know exactly what he meant. Without infrastructure to accommodate commerce where would we be?
I worked in the construction trades at all levels from line worker to business owner. Without financial assistance through taxes there would be no paved roads, no schools, no public hospitals or any of the rest of what we now consider the necessities of living.[quote=”waggoner41″][quote=”loraine”]
Fairness? 50% of Americans pay NO federal tax. How is that fair? Why not a flat tax so EVERYONE gets to pay their ‘fair’ share? If these gains get taxed as ordinary income, that’ll go from 15% up to 25% and higher. That’s more than a few dollars. And what are the stats on increasing the taxes on every millionaire–doesn’t it come out to an extra $85 billion in tax revenue or something like that–enough for 8 days of what we spend. [/quote]
The taxes Americans really pay, in two graphs
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-taxes-americans-really-pay-in-two-graphs/2012/04/16/gIQA6o4yLT_blog.html
Why do half of all Americans pay no federal income taxes?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/why-do-half-of-all-americans-pay-no-federal-income-taxes/2011/07/11/gIQA8olBuI_blog.html
If you take into account the total tax burden, most everyone is paying, and they’re paying surprisingly similar effective rates. And it’s easy enough to understand why someone struggling to make it on $30,000 a year would chafe at paying 25 percent to the tax man in a way that someone cruising along at $500,000 wouldn’t
[quote=”loraine”]If you personally were in a deficit position, would you charge up your credit cards to continue to live as you desire or would you cut back on your spending to make ends meet? [/quote]
That is precisely why the middle class carries so much debt. Everyone wants to keep up with the Joneses and own the newest of whatever is on the market rather than planning a budget and sticking to it.[quote=”loraine”]I live in NYS and we are taxed to death (and in one of the highest property taxed counties in the US). When one of two pay no federal tax, there is something wrong there. [/quote]
You are confusing local property taxes which finance only local issues. If you don’t like the tax structure there you can move to Alabama or Mississippi where the taxes are substantially lower and the infrastructure is substandard.
[quote=”loraine”]The only people who think this tax structure is fair are those who are paying nothing…50%.[/quote]
Read the citations that I provided to find out how wrong you are.
[/quote][/quote]
As a last word, I don’t consider the tax system in America to be fair. If you want to find someone to blame, look in the mirror. The voters are the ones who are responsible for electing their representation in congress. Until voters become intelligent enough to question candidates on their knowledge of economics and economic history there will be no changes.
Cutting taxes is not the answer. Rewriting the tax code is what must be done. Why is it that 1% of the population holds more than 33% of total wealth and earns nearly 25% of total income? It isn’t because your congress has allowed this to happen, they have legislated it to happen.Wagoneer, now YOU are bringing a little comedic relief to this post. Do you really still believe that Congress, through the people, is in charge?
It is not “our congress”. The government belongs to the bankers. The republic is dead and you and so many others are still sleep walking in the american dream clutching your little voting registration cards. It is going to take a bit more than that to effect any change. And THEY know it. That’s why they are working at removing the 2nd amendment.
wagoneer
I don’t need to look in the mirror because i voted with my feet and did a walkabout
so NOW i don’t pay anything.. 🙂 [b]NOT 1 PENNY [/b]
[b]I PAY NOT ONE PENNY TO THE U.S. GOVERMENT. [/b]
now I get to watch all the minions sit around and get milked by our goverment.
the only freedom we as individuals have left is getting up and leave.
dave
btw- obamas speech was NOT taken out of context. and roads and infrastructure were paid for out of my taxes as a business owner when I was plugged into the system.
when I had my business I lost a million dollars in capital, and barely survived bankruptcy. then finally after 100 hours working a week my business turned around and I managed to finally have profit. kept at it and I managed to finally sell the business for a profit.
in fact being located in NYC my experience with local goverment went as far as when the city decided to rip up the streets to fix some damage which caused me to lose most of my retail walkin traffic for 8 months. want to know what they gave ,t to help out during this.. a sign :shock::shock:
Obama has to be one of the worst presidents in history… everything about this guy is just staged
and when he slips and reveals his true feelings about a topic.. then we see what is in his heart
the problem is Romney is really no better so instead having to choose I said
[b]NO MAS!!![/b]:lol: and my life is great. thank you very much
[quote=”sprite”]Wagoneer, now YOU are bringing a little comedic relief to this post. Do you really still believe that Congress, through the people, is in charge?
It is not “our congress”. The government belongs to the bankers. The republic is dead and you and so many others are still sleep walking in the american dream clutching your little voting registration cards. It is going to take a bit more than that to effect any change. And THEY know it. That’s why they are working at removing the 2nd amendment.[/quote]
No, I’m not among the walking dead which you would realize if you paid attention. The wealthy and corporate America run the country through congress because the American voter doesn’t have the brass to fight against it…and probably doesn’t know how.
You cry and moan on this forum about what is wrong…what are YOU doing about it?
[quote=”sprite”]. They don’t use it to care for the elderly and sick. They don’t use it to educate our young. In the US, most of it goes to the banks to pay interest on money created by the banks out of thin air, “lent” to the people. Most of the remainder goes to maintain an imperialistic arm of state force to ensure an obedient world population.
While I too object to the expensive, unproductive and cruel war machine of the US, and have not voted for any warmonger presidents, that is not the only thing the US government spends money on. I, like many of you, am receiving Social Security and Medicare benefits and am thankful for them. After many years of fighting for other people as an underpaid government lawyer, representing consumer rights, abused children, a banking regulator, nursing home regulator, etc., I feel it is fair that I receive these benefits, as it is for anyone who has worked hard in or outside the home and thus contributed to society. People who pay taxes are contributing to my well being, as I contribute to the welfare of others by paying my taxes, and I appreciate them. I also think as human beings we all have an obligation to help support the disabled, abused kids, etc. and have seen with my own eyes that while churches and charities help, they cannot carry the entire load.
The idea that we will get rid of government by not paying taxes and somehow make the world a better place is either extremely naive or sophistry to rationalize tax evasion. Maybe in pioneer days when the world was less populated a local community could provide what regulation and assistance was needed on an informal basis, but those days are long gone and government is more and more needed. Government is inevitable. Politcians who encourage you to “kill the beast” are just trying to channel your anger into votes for themselves. That is why after 12 years of antigovernment rhetoric and actions by certain politicians in the US we actually have a MORE invasive government.
[quote=”sprite”]. They don’t use it to care for the elderly and sick. They don’t use it to educate our young. In the US, most of it goes to the banks to pay interest on money created by the banks out of thin air, “lent” to the people. Most of the remainder goes to maintain an imperialistic arm of state force to ensure an obedient world population. [/quote]
[quote=”hakesp”] While I too object to the expensive, unproductive and cruel war machine of the US, and have not voted for any warmonger presidents, that is not the only thing the US government spends money on. I, like many of you, am receiving Social Security and Medicare benefits and am thankful for them. After many years of fighting for other people as an underpaid government lawyer, representing consumer rights, abused children, a banking regulator, nursing home regulator, etc., I feel it is fair that I receive these benefits, as it is for anyone who has worked hard in or outside the home and thus contributed to society. People who pay taxes are contributing to my well being, as I contribute to the welfare of others by paying my taxes, and I appreciate them. I also think as human beings we all have an obligation to help support the disabled, abused kids, etc. and have seen with my own eyes that while churches and charities help, they cannot carry the entire load. [/quote]
Some of us are willing to walk past a man, beaten, bleeding and lying in the gutter, and look the other way. Some are willing to provide some assistance or least call 911.
[quote=”hakesp”] The idea that we will get rid of government by not paying taxes and somehow make the world a better place is either extremely naive or sophistry to rationalize tax evasion. Maybe in pioneer days when the world was less populated a local community could provide what regulation and assistance was needed on an informal basis, but those days are long gone and government is more and more needed. Government is inevitable. Politcians who encourage you to “kill the beast” are just trying to channel your anger into votes for themselves. That is why after 12 years of antigovernment rhetoric and actions by certain politicians in the US we actually have a MORE invasive government. [/quote]
The “GOOD OLD DAYS” were much simpler and a community knew who everyone was and took care of its own even down to the town drunk who would be provided a night in jail so that he didn’t have to sleep out in the weather.
As you say “Those days are long gone”. The larger the population in a given area the greater the need to provide what is needed within that area. How would our society deal with no police departments while all of us carry guns or the professional fire department and the water infrastructure on which they depend or the transportation system that moves goods and food to the local markets and on and on. Who built Hoover Dam and the TVA that provides electricity for a major part of the U.S.?
I have known for a number of years that there is a solution to the issue of government finance but it will never happen until the nation is bankrupt and people realize that voters are incapable of selecting representation that is not economically illiterate.
[quote=”waggoner41″
No, I’m not among the walking dead which you would realize if you paid attention. The wealthy and corporate America run the country through congress because the American voter doesn’t have the brass to fight against it…and probably doesn’t know how.
You cry and moan on this forum about what is wrong…what are YOU doing about it?[/quote]
I don’t consider it “crying and whining” by trying to wake up a few people with facts. And I am resisting all this evil with non conformance to the most egregious assaults by the bankers and government. At the very least, I do not participate in the voting joke, I do not celebrate soldiers (who offer themselves as murdering servants) and I practice extreme tax avoidance.
[quote=”waggoner41″]You cry and moan on this forum about what is wrong…what are YOU doing about it?[/quote]
[quote=”sprite”]I don’t consider it “crying and whining” by trying to wake up a few people with facts. And I am resisting all this evil with non conformance to the most egregious assaults by the bankers and government. At the very least, I do not participate in the voting joke, I do not celebrate soldiers (who offer themselves as murdering servants) and I practice extreme tax avoidance.[/quote]
I think most of us are of an age that we have seen the middle class sliding into poverty since the 1970’s. It is a historical fact that the middle class drives the U.S. economy but now the fat cats have bought congress at the expense of the middle class.
There was, and still is, a better way to deal with the issues of the gold standard. (1973)
Supply side economics has been a non-starter since it was first introduced as the “horse and sparrow economy” in 1897 (led to the financial panic of 1907). It didn’t work then, it didn’t work in 1982 as a Reagan policy (increased debt to GDP by 36%) and it didn’t work in 2001 as a GW Bush policy (increased debt to GDP by 29.11%) and it won’t work if Romney becomes president.
Congress’ expectation that the financial industry will self regulate is a fantasy. It is, in fact, the only industry that REQUIRES severe regulation because they are toying with the financial condition of every one of us. Their only interest is in how much money goes into their pockets. (rescission of Glass-Stegall in 1999)
Initiating war on credit for the first time in WORLD history has put the burden of paying that debt on our grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
You are preaching to the choir on this forum. We all know that there are inequities in the tax code but for the most part we still believe in helping our fellow man when it is needed even knowing that a few will gull the system or at least attempt to.
You are insulting my intelligence as well as that of many other by voicing your extremist diatribe. You still have the option of buying a deserted island where you don’t have to put up with listening to the likes of me or any governkment.
I, for one, would rather be discussing the beauty, the wonderful people and the benefits of living in Costa Rica on this forum.
[quote=”hakesp”]
The idea that we will get rid of government by not paying taxes and somehow make the world a better place is either extremely naive or sophistry to rationalize tax evasion. [/quote]
Once more, I repeat that I refer strictly to the Federal Income Tax ONLY when I say that tax is a hideous, onerous thieving of our wealth. I refer to no other tax here so please, try to see through your brainwashing. The indoctrination you are suffering through keeps throwing you off the path and into the ditch where you wander around talking about other taxes and other issues rather than the one at hand.
Regarding Social Security; it is apart from the Income Tax and while it is still a forced savings plan, it is at least intended to to be paid out to the contributors while the Income Tax is pure thievery since it all goes to the bankers and the military.
A note; the fact that you have adopted the IRS term “tax evasion” is evidence that you have drunk the kool aid and are unable to see through your conditioning at this point.
EDUCATE YOURSELF AS TO THE DISPOSITION OF THE INCOME TAX REVENUE. It goes towards murdering women and children all across the planet and your compliance with this tax makes you an accessory to the crime.[quote=”waggoner41″]
We all know that there are inequities in the tax code but for the most part we still believe in helping our fellow man when it is needed even knowing that a few will gull the system or at least attempt to.
[/quote]
Inequities in the tax code? The entire tax and the entire system is an inequity.
We can still talk about the beauty of Costa Rica. But that won’t make the boogey man disappear.
Sprite
I appreciate the passion you have in your replies but I think you are way too intense for the majority of people when you speak in these topics
I say this because I agree with your core philosophies 100%.
but people have varying degree’s of perspective and there is nothing you will be able to do about except engage in these conversations that will lead nowhere.
so why bother???
better to exchange ideas in a way that you might be able to extract a detail that may help you become even more detached from the silliness.
like i previously stated I pay NOTHING to the U.S government so I am kind of free to a certain extent.
and living here in costa rica.. thankfully I can always stay a few steps ahead of this government where I almost live a tax free life.
I never say… oh that’s not fair.. 😀 my objective is to always land on the right side of the equation
I don’t always do this but more often than not.
so life is great!!!
davidd,
Engaging people with the truth is not silliness. And I just can’t sit back and silently watch them roll around in bovine excrement with each other on these matters without speaking up.
And I could not say the conversation went nowhere. Who knows? Maybe somebody read here for the first time my claim as to what the Federal Income Tax is and what it is used for. Maybe that somebody will look it up and find out I was telling the truth.
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