- This topic has 1 reply, 11 voices, and was last updated 16 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
The fat lady ain’t gonna sing till the last act, which contains the drama of the world economic melt down. In the meantime, unless we see a Mad Max world unfold because of it, I don’t see Costa Rica succumbing to absolute zenophobia. This in between time may see some indecision and confusion and even an official cold shoulder towards us from the government. I expect that and I am only trying to guess where and how far it will go. My buiggest fear is that the Ticos may uncharacteristically turn xenophobic in really bad times.
Edited on Nov 30, 2008 03:16
Lotus, there may well be a simple answer to the question of why the proposed new law does not address the matter of perpetual tourism. That answer would be that the matter of perpetual tourism has already been adequately addressed elsewhere.
Think about it, if a government wished to (say) amend the criminal law as it relates to murder, must it also address anew the matter of manslaughter? No, it need not if the government is satisfied that manslaughter is adequately addressed already.
Costa Rica’s existing law (enforced or not) may already adequately address the matter of abuse of tourism visas and the status of tourism. If that’s true, nothing further is needed in that regard (except maybe enforcement).
Oh you bet they could become xenophobic, just as they have in parts of Europe. Look at it this way, we gringos come to this poor beautiful country, build very nice homes that we probably couldn’t afford to build where we came from in the US, cost of goods and services goes up (partly because of the war we started in Irag), cost of food and other essential items goes up (because of that same war and escalating gas prices), and pretty soon the poor Tico can’t afford to live in his own country anymore. And then let’s add to that mix the fact that the US is directly responsible for the financial meltdown that will surely have a trickle-down effect to the lowly Ticos in some form or other. You think they are going to be happy we came and changed their way of life? Unh-uh. You want CR to wind up like Mexico where they’re kidnapping and killing gringos? Part of that hatred towards us stems from the wonderful NAFTA agreement which allowed multi-nationals to go in, snap up farm land, and put the poor Mexican farmers out of business. I would hate us too, and the way the world is going right now, it’s not going to get any better. Who knew this would happen 4 or 5 years ago when some of us made the leap to Costa Rica? As for property ownership, that is guaranteed to us in the constitution, so I worry less about them re-appropriating my property than I do about the crime wave we’ve been having in my neighborhood that has necessitated all of us getting either bars on the windows, alarm systems, or guard dogs. And in that respect, I sense a nearly imperceptible paradigm shift about whether or not it will be safe for us to live there or whether we will just be constant targets for theft and vandalism.
That makes sense David if it is already addressed in their laws. What exactly is the bottom line on being a PT as far as the law goes? Perhaps one of the attorneys out there can shed some more light on this subject?
Ask another question:
Why would the United States have laws about immigration and yet let MILLIONS of illegal immigrants not only come here but work here, buy cars here, go to school here, get disability here, etc. etc..?My point is that when it comes to government policy, logic does not always prevail.
To answer the original poster, I know several people who have been perpetual tourists for 5-15 (yes, 15!) years, and none of them have been deported or refused entry.
Do I recommend people live as perpetual tourists? No, it is not the best way to live. But unfortunately sometimes it is the only way some people can live on their property.
I personally think (in the past, and up until now at least; Who knows how it may change if the new law passes?) that getting deported for being a PT is very unlikely.
Maravilla makes a lot of valid points.
Perpetual Tourist are by no means even close to illegal aliens. Perpetual tourist are NOT illegal. The law clearly states that it is legal to leave the country and reenter after 72 hours. Nothing illegal about that. If you can qualify for residency and you use the 72-hour law to stay here “legally,” then it is not even an abuse of the law (read the law yourself – it is not mentioned so by default it is legal).
If you are a criminal who would not be granted residency, then using the 72-hour law to circumvent the requirements to stay here perpetually might be (might be) illegal. I think some on this board need to get off their high horse regarding the rules and their enforcement. It’s one thing to espouse following the law, it another to play big mother.
I think most people used to go to Costa Rica to get away from big mother, now it seems that those who have came here to try and duplicate their standard of living for less money have brought their big mother attitude with them. I think CR would be better off if its foreign residence acted like Ticos rather than Americans.
Isn’t the idea to assimilate: (definition) to make similar; to absorb into the culture or MORES of a population or group? That clearly mean to do as they do. Mores (definition) derive from THE ESTABLISHED PRACTICES OF A SOCIETY RATHER THAN ITS WRITTEN LAWS. They consist of SHARED UNDERSTANDINGS about the kinds of behavior likely to evoke approval, disapproval, toleration or sanction, within particular contexts.
Americans do not share these understanding of Tico culture. They bring their understanding of government participation with them, and they clash with Tico culture. Then it starts to rub off on Tico politicians and the government starts to get bigger. Which leads to more taxes and less freedom (witness the last several years in Costa Rica – new transit laws – luxury taxes, higher immigration financial requirement).
It all goes back to our big American egos – manifest destiny and we-know-best and all that archaic crap. All our nationalism has created a runaway consumer freight train powered by consumption and gobbling the earth’s resources. I liken the US immigration to Costa Rica as the western settlers imposing their “right-way” of doing things on the North American Indians. Look where that got us. Middle America wants nothing more than to come to CR and screw it up by playing by the exact letter of the law. It’s this kind of blind following that has gotten us in such trouble in the US.
Just because it may be considered illegal does not make something unethical. Likewise, just because something is legal, does not make it ethical. Legalities and ethics are separate. If someone comes and goes every 90 days and while they are here, they participate in society and spread their wealth, what is it that they have done that is unethical? What, they have not paid money to a government that like all governments is power hungry, ineffective and inefficient and returns little for the money that its supporters invest. The legal residents cry foul because they paid money, so they want other to also pay. Whaaaa…
Government is a necessary evil. Ticos seem to understand this much more than Americans, and perhaps this is why we Americans are saddled with the work-enslavement that supports a mammoth government.
I think Ticos have it right with their ideas of selective participation and funding the government as little as possible. The problem is that so many in the US are working for the government that to do anything else but playing along is biting the hand that feeds them – because it is their own hand! More and more Americans are becoming their government. The bailouts prove my point! Then these types come down here and screw it up for the Ticos. I see why they want to restrict immigration because other cultures come here and do not assimilate (see definition above to reinforce the point). Assimilation requires reading in-between the lines for the transparent fine print: the established practices and unwritten understandings…
It just like declaring the true value of your property when you transfer the deed. Ask the Tico attorneys who represent Ticos. The Ticos do not want to declare the actual price. They know that it means more money to the lawyers and politicians. They insist on maintaining the status quo (existing fiscal value in the registry). They don’t want Gringos to start a trend by doing it either. Nevertheless, I bet the majority of you property owners here did not maintain the existing fiscal value in the registry, as the Ticos do. Is it illegal not to change it. Yes, if you follow the letter of the law. Is it unethical? Not if you do not want a more powerful government and to make Tico attorneys inappropriately wealthy compared to other Ticos. To maintain the cultural mores clearly requires not changing the registered fiscal value.
There is a game here to play and Americans need to start understanding the real rules. But, they will never understand if they don’t leave their egos at the airport. There are a few who want to get rich at the expense of making it more difficult for the average Tico, and they cloak themselves in the law to demonstrate their righteousness (attorneys and politicians and anyone else who has become dependent on the government).
You may be reading too much in to the Tico attitude towards government. The Ticos obviously approve of socialized government involvement in their lives. I don’t see them as Libertarians at odds with socialism. What I do see is a socialst government coping with an invasion of wealthier citizens from the north, the opposite of what is happening in the States.
The CR government saw a way to increase revenues from these new wealthier immigrants by stricter enforcement of proper and fair land value assessments. Ticos may be complaining about increased regs regarding land value assessment and blaming the new regs on gringos. Hence, new, more restrictive requirements on immigration?
I agree with you on the point ofperpetual tourism. I have yet to hear a story about a foreign national being refused re-entry for violating some unwrittenspirit of the law.
“I have yet to hear a story about a foreign national being refused re-entry for violating some unwrittenspirit of the law”
Hey, Sprite, why don’t you be the test subject???? Just kidding. Just because YOU haven’t heard about this happening doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.
It is really not as much about residency as it is about assimilation. If we assimilate, it does not upset the status quo and we don’t have to deal with the kind of changes. And changes that are happening at breakneck speed considering we are talking about Costa Rica. I had high hopes for Arias, but he is so far off the mark (way too progressive), that I believe that Solis would have done much better – I don’t think he is so money hungry. Solis is a traditionalist and I hope he wins in 16 months. It’s almost the difference between Bush and Gore (but in a Tico manner).
At the risk of being repetitive the gist of it is that Costa Rica would be better off if its foreign residence acted like Ticos rather than Americans. To most Americans, there is only financial reasoning to do anything. Money is almost always the determining factor. And that is why we have such terrible representation of the Arts (music, movies etc). Nobody has anything to say. Its all work and little creativity with no time to think. So they come here to live cheaper, and totally disregard the culture and its practices. They just continue like drones with their antennas out feeling their way along the wall of rules. Ticos know have to navigate in an intuitive way. It’s not about how they feel about government, although I believe that most have contempt for it, its about the way they have elevated passivity to an art form. They simply do not participate with laws they find unjust. Passive aggression at its finest and I applaud them for it because it maintains the staus quo.
The idea is to assimilate by absorbing the culture and blending into the population. To do this means to act as the Ticos do, this requires understanding the established practices of Tico society as much as its written laws, and a shared understanding about approved behaviors and what behaviors will bring disapproval.
Instead, Americans transpose their behaviors, such as their understanding of the need to follow the letter of the law. Americans have suffered such financial inhumanities at the hands of their government that they quiver like an abused pet dog when they think about not submitting to the letter of the law.
This makes it even more difficult to share an understanding of Tico culture and social mores. The unintended consequences are difficulty establishing Tico friendships and not participating in important cultural events. And the Gringos become even more estranged and farther from assimilation.
I saw graffiti on walls in San Ramon that said “Arias — puta de Bush!” I guess that says it all.
Gringos have a hard time assimilating. They are very ignorant of other cultures, and think the American way is best. I’ve traveled to a lot of different countries, and you can always pick out the Americans by their brashness, clothing, and brusque manner in dealing with the locals.
If you state that the government IS denying re-entry to perpetual tourists, then you have the obligation to prove that point. I have no obligation to prove a negative. I don’t even have a position on this matter. All I am doing is asking if anyone has any anecdotal evidence of the government cracking down on perpetual tourism. I suspect that there is no suchcrack down and I am not even sure it is illegal. So far, nobody has shownme anything to the contrary.
2BNCR, are you fluent in Spanish? That would be the very first and most important component of assimilation. I am amazed that anyone moves to CR who is not fluent in Spanish. In fact, it strikes me as naive to assume that one can assimilate without being fluent in the language.
Most immigrants have the same motive; economic. How many Mexican immigrants really crave to be like gringos? How many American immigrants who move to CR truly want to be Tico?
I think it is a little naive to believe that a north American or European can ever meaningfully assimilate into the Costa Rican culture and society. One can study the history, learn the language, etc, but one can never retroactively have the experience of growing up Costa Rican. And without that background, that wealth of daily experience, one can only put on the air of being “assimilated”.
I had this insight years ago during college when I worked part-time in a Federal Bureau of Prisons halfway house. Despite all my aspirations, I finally realized that I could never be African-American. It was too late.
What I do believe is that we can do our very best to be polite, as sensitive as possible, patient, and tolerant. The best we can hope for is to become welcome guests in our adopted communities. And that’s not so bad . . .
David, you’ll have to define “meaningful” assimilation. To me, meaningful means the ability to, at the very least, participate in the community to the degree that one feels comfortable and accepted. How anyone can do that without speaking the language is beyond me. One may have neighbors and acquaintances who show good manners but until one can share appreciation of some of the cultural components with them, one will not be able to establish a meaningful relationship. Language is the bare minimun requirement for that in my book.
Sprite, I for one want to become Tico. I do believe that there are many people that come to the US and want to be Americans. They understand that they may not reach 100% assimilation (whatever that means), but they take the time to learn the language (I agree with you Sprite – mandatory to at least try and be interested in learning). However, I do believe that they realize that their children will assimilate.
David you sound like a careful being. I think the first thing that first-generation immigrants should do is take the local social customs into consideration by not blindly following written rules that your adopted culture does not follow. I believe that the “well, we are guest here so we have to behave differently” does not hold water. It is a declaration of “we are different” which IMO is subconscious association with superior. I don’t believe that we gringos should come to Costa Rica and start changing their social mores because the attorneys and politicians want to create a larger financial base to enforce laws.
There was a great swordsman by the name of Myamoto Musashi. He said the highest degree of control is to be free of control. To seek to control others, is to lose your freedo; as your actions are now dictated to you by what is needed to institute control. You lose the freedom of choosing how to act.
When people can control themselves, this is the highest freedom and nothing more is needed.
IMO Ticos have always done an excellent job of controlling themselves. So us Gringos, which are mostly recovering control freaks (myself included) find Costa Rica refreshing as there are a bunch of people living together in an area with little law enforcement (hence everybody is controlling themselves).
So to upset it by enlarging the government so those outside the community can enforce control is really a step backwards.
Nevertheless, by our nature (as the world police) we resonate with control; our ability to control nature, to control the world economy, to control our neighbors. It’s a sickness.
I am not saying we have to become Costaricence, but we should not seek to change things because we feel that it is similar to how it is done in the US, and therefore superior.
The culture here is far better than the US. People here for the most part are much more well adjusted. If you start tinkering with the SOCIAL MORES by behaving contrary to them, then you are changing the essence of their culture.
First generations immigrants may never be able to assimilate fully, but we should walk through their culture and leave no trash behind, only our footprints. And blindly participating with the written laws that the Ticos ignore is doing so at the expense of their social mores. It’s leaving behind cultural litter.
Respecting their social mores is what IMO David calls a being a “welcome guest.”
David, I just reread your post and the “to put on the air of assimilation” part. IMO intent is primary. If you do your best to assimilate you are never pretending (putting on the air- as you put it). Because you do not have the wealth of daily experience, to me, sounds like justification for not putting your heart in it – along with your head. Again, it goes back to intent. With all due sincerity and respect, I think you need a gut check on that one. If you want to settle for being adopted and the “that’s not so bad,” that’s your prerogative. Me, I want to be full-blooded first generation Costaricense immigrant.
David, if you want it, you can have it. Not that you may ever become it, BUT as the Tico so often demonstrate that when you are in PROCESS (just like residency) you receive the benefits (and the benefit of the doubt), that is, you receive the recognition of assimilation even though you have not achieved it yet. And that is one of the beautiful and humane thing about Tico culture.
And yes Sprite, I would love to claim Costa Rica nationality and be buried in Costa Rica.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
