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It’s just my opinion but I think ‘upeCity’ should be awarded some kind of ‘ultimate’ Discussion Forum award
Thank you for being so beautifully succinct.
You are bloody brilliant!
Scott Oliver – Founder
WeLoveCostaRica.comApparently Roark, you and I, have something in common, we both admire Thomas Jefferson which happens to be one the greatest statesmen and mind that the US has ever produced so I shall not challenge your thoughts with mine, but with his. First, by addressing why government should be questioned–which IS exactly what Mr. Jefferson expected of US citizens. Second, to reiterate to you that being a man who appreciated honesty, justice and believed in the intrinsic rights of others, he is by no means in the same league with this current administration. Mr. Jefferson had very precise thoughts about what government should be and about the use and abuse of power which is why intervening the way we have and using our power so unwisely would not have been a political nor a moral option for him. Read some of his own thoughts on these topics for yourself:
ABOUT QUESTIONING GOVERNMENT:
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
No government ought to be without censors; and where the press is free no one ever will.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.
Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government.
If once the people become inattentive to the public affairs, you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors, shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general nature, in spite of individual exceptions.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power.
I find the pain of a little censure, even when it is unfounded, is more acute than the pleasure of much praise.
Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error.
One man with courage is a majority. (I add:including the courage to question)
The man who fears no truth has nothing to fear from lies.
Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.
The liberty of speaking and writing guards our other liberties.
The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be submitted to.
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.
ABOUT WHAT A NATION AND GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE:
The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.
Freedom of the person under the protection of habeas corpus. I deem one of the
essential principles of our government.
(which this administration has taken from us all!!)The care of human life and happiness and not their destruction is the first and only legitimate object of good government.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprises of the civil authority. It is to secure our rights that we resort to government at all.
It is the great parent of science and of virtue: and that a nation will be great in both, always in proportion as it is free.
Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people.
Political interest can never be separated in the long run from moral right.
Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law,’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.
Liberty…is the great parent of science and of virtue; and…a nation will be great in both always in proportion as it is free.
There is…an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and birth, without either virtue or talents…. The artificial aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and provisions should be made to prevent its ascendancy.
The only orthodox object of the institution of government is to secure the greatest degree of happiness possible to the general mass of those associated under it.
The art of governing consists simply of being honest, exercising common sense, following principle, and doing what is right and just.
Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers and be capable of reading them.
About what our foreign policy should be and thoughts on war:
Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it.I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us that the less we use our power the greater it will be.
One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.
My views and feelings are in favor of the abolition of war…
ABOUT ETHICS AND PRINCIPLES:
Our principles are founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason.
I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man.
On matters of style, swim with the current, on matters of principle, stand like a rock.
I sincerely… believe… in the general existence of moral instinct. I think it the brightest gem with which the human character is studded, and the want of it as more degrading than the most hideous of the bodily deformities.
Encourage all your virtuous dispositions, and exercise them whenever an opportunity arises, being assured that they will gain strength by exercise…and that exercise will make them habitual.
The greatest honor of a man is in doing good to his fellow men, not in destroying them.
I have never been able to conceive how any rational being could propose happiness to himself from the exercise of power over others.
No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.
*******In the end, I don’t know what lies ahead for the US and it breaks my heart to know that I live in a near fascist state, something I would have never believed in a thousand years if someone had told me this 10 years ago! It may come down to saving some while sacrificing others, but whatever administration follows I hope it will show a glimmer of Thomas Jefferson’s character and principles. Now this doesn’t mean that I think the man was perfect, for goodness sake he was a slave owner even if he wrote quite eloquently about the horrors of that endeavor—after all, he was a man of his time, as we are people of this moment in time, but he also dared to question and to stand on principle. Consequently, when we question not, it puts us in really good company Roark…
Edited on Nov 13, 2007 18:30
Scott, again we agree… 😉
Seriously though, thank you for providing us a civilized forum to share concerns, seek solutions, vent our angst and strut our prose…
You da man!
To the superficial reader and the person who develops their ideology from bumper stickers I guess you are “bloody brilliant”
Jefferson declared war on Tripoli in 1801 over payment of tribute to protect American ships. The lefts cry back then was blood for ships no doubt. He sent this country to war this is a fact despite your cherrypicked quotes.
On slavery: “I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master & slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free.—- Thomas Jefferson
Words from a man who owned slaves throughout his life.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
Thomas JeffersonThere is very little long term hope for a nation that does not respect life. As much as Jefferson hated war, he knew that SOMETIMES it was inevitable and as much as he thought the institution of slavery was demeaning, he was a man living in a context where slavery was part of everyday life–We’re all products of our times and our principles, but he actually fared better than most when decisions about each had to be made because he actually had principles beyond the context of his time (something I think I made perfectly clear in my post).
You obviously find no other principle more important than to crush whomsoever dare to challenge or be different from the US even if that involves the shedding our own soldiers’ blood and the hemorrhage of civilian blood to prove a point that was based on false data = lies (acknowledged by everyone, including those within this administration) –my heart truly aches for both of these circumstances. Tyrants only know how to flex muscle and easily turn on “friends” (so you better watch your back Roark…) at the drop of a hat because that’s the strategy that’s worked for them–until one day it no longer does. Truly wise leaders, government or otherwise, use their intelligence to formulate other options and will only resort to violence in self defense…Bullies intimidate because they lack true substance of character, lack compassion for others, know that fear can rule (at least for a while) and ALWAYS lack a well rounded intelligence—I say this Administration is a posterchild for bullies….just remember a lesson learned in every grammar school playground, sooner or later, every bully has to pay the piper when he’s successfully confronted by the group or a truly brave soul that makes a mockery out of him—unfortunately, there is no compassion in anyone’s heart left for him at that point…. Conscience needs to be practiced, you and this administration should give it a try….
Uppecity,
I am far from an anarchist, believe me. But that doesn’t mean I am not open to change, and radical change when necessary. Our constitution lists that option plainly. I was emphasizing that point.
I get bored and even irritated with fearful people who seek comfort and safety over progress and the necessary risk that comes with progressive thinking and acting. Nations and individuals only move forward when they get rid of fear and take chances.
By the way, thanks, rebaragon for the Jefferson quotes. I wonder if Jefferson were alive today, would he stay put and fight the good fight against the ignorance of the people and moneyed interests in power or would he sell his Virginia farm and start a new life somewhere else, oh, say, maybe in Costa Rica……:-}
Edited on Nov 14, 2007 04:52
Edited on Nov 14, 2007 05:17
“I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.” TJ.
A little understanding goes a long way.
In the past week we have been discussing more about the US than CR., and the implications of a country gone out of control. We see the light at the end of the tunnel, and it isn’t one visible within the borders of the US. We all have our own reasons and opinions of why we want to leave. Some stronger than others. The common theme is, We just don’t like it here anymore, or maybe never have.
All the arguments in favor of leaving, gives us a reasonable assumption there are many others in the US who share our sentiments. This common ground has brought many political philosophies to the same conclusion. Some want to get out immediately, others just part-time. Still, they just want to get out.
Given the situation I have, it will be many more years before the final exodus, My family and I have to make the stand, and see what happens. Ron Paul, in theory makes sense. In practicality, he hasn’t got a chance. The die is always cast for which type of head of state we receive. Voter apathy, along with media campaigns, almost assures the result. With congressional approval ratings at 11%, a presidential rating below 30%, and no meaningful reaction from the electorate, or “media,” how can business as usual not continue? Ron Paul is a great idea, it just ain’t gonna happen. That’s not defeatist talk, just a fact of how the system works. We always get the government we deserve. I guess we deserve very little.
It has only taken one administration to so radically change the political landscape in this country as to bring about this situation, real or perceived. The 1960s were about civil changes needed to be brought about by government. The 21st century is about governmental changes that need to be brought about by civilians.
No way 20 years ago would there be such a want to leave here. The more we shy away from the process that brings us these elected officials, the faster the decline in civil liberties, happiness and prosperity. The forces have divided us, heaven forbid they conquer.
Roark, I am quite curious to know why you would be on a Forum that brings together people that love Costa Rica and have lived or wish to live there considering that CR has actually abolished its military forces and shows no signs of wishing to re-instate them within its borders? If an “invader” mentality is spinning fairy tales in your head at the thought of the US overpowering the will of the Costa Rican people based on heaven knows what ill conceived ideas (similar to those constructed to attack other countries illegitimately), may I suggest you read up on William Walker, a bully and US sponsored terrorist that was taught a much needed lesson by the usually peace loving people of CR…
There’s an article about William Walker on this site at
“It is said that one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist but William Walker was an American ‘filibuster,’ had he been a Nicaraguan or a Costa Rican engaging “in an unauthorized military expedition” into the USA, no doubt he would have been called a “terrorist” of the worst possible kind.”
Scott Oliver – Founder
WeLoveCostaRica.comRoark, I’m not brilliant… and I do enjoy a good bumper sticker…
But, I’ve not found many superficial readers on this site. Ideology runs deep here. Not so deep that we can’t open our minds to new ideas and admit we’re wrong on occasion.
Scott, don’t let this go to your head but I would venture to say through the years we’ve learned a thing or two here…
Roark I am wrong to assume to know you… But the Bush administration has clearly shown its stripes…
I will defend America with my blood and that of all my children and their children if need be… But I will NOT be the aggressor. I will NOT support a traitor who sells out his country to special interest… Regardless of how many flags you wrap him in…I will NOT support your emperor…On the subject of cherry picking, you may have overlooked the fact that Jefferson’s second administration began with a favorable settlement ending the Tripolitan War… We all make mistakes, recognizing them takes wisdom and character… both sorely lacking in this administration.
Edited on Nov 14, 2007 06:27
Sprite, I know your not… I understand now what you meant… Chaos breeds change without a dose of it we wither and die….
Reba, ditto on the TJ quotes… First, Marti now Jefferson. This forum, CR in general draws in many kindered spirits. We’re a diverse bunch but we continually weave a common thread that brings us all closer, smaller and yet stonger.
Thanks
I’ve got work to do… ciaoReba: I don’t care one way or the other that Costa Rica has no standing army. It makes no difference to me. I come to this forum because I want to learn more about Costa Rica and the real estate opportunities there. I didn’t think it was for people who all thought the same way, walking to the beat of the same drummer.
As for William Walker, I don’t know why you bring him up, but I did read the article when Scott originally posted it. He reminds me a lot like Che and I can’t stand the likes of Che Guevara.
Edited on Nov 14, 2007 10:35
Edited on Nov 14, 2007 10:39
Roark, William Walker was trying to procure slave workers for the US. Che, was trying to free people. At least that was his intent. There may be some similarities, but a difference in principle and intent.
I don’t think we all walk to the beat of the same drummer. In fact I know we don’t
Roark, I appreciate different points of view as long as they are rational and well expressed. Nobody but Mr. Oliver can boot you out of here. Don’t be too disappointed if you do not find an army of like minded people on this site.
Regards Che, he is a hero of mine and is in no way similar to Walker. Che took a populist social revolution to South America to help the common people. Walker came to Costa Rica to take real estate, not to improve the lot of the Costa Ricans. One has statues and images of his likeness all over the planet and is revered. The other is only remembered as one more evil that the U.S. has visited upon its neighbors.
I would rather see americans come to Costa Rica more in the spirit of El Che rather than in the spirit of Walker.
Hey Roark, there’s something we may yet have in common (if you’ve ever read anything I’ve ever written about Che you would know this). I thought Che was ruthless and arrogant leader and that can never be the character of a true statesman. Unfortunately, Che was not the only political leader that suffers from these character flaws–even when they’re not as charismatic as Che has been considered! Interesting you compare Walker to him since Walker had the US President’s approval to engage in his military endeavors. But I’m still left wondering why someone who seems so focused on immediate, indiscriminate and crushing military use should love a country that so proudly boasts of a political philosophy that is exactly the opposite of this? I still don’t know. I don’t like to suppose or make attributions about people I’m not familiar with, I find that counterproductive, which is why I ask. BTW, my name is Rebeca, but friends on the Forum have been known to modify my name from time to time and as long as it’s not made into a derogatory form, I don’t get upset–it actually makes me smile sometimes…I know that CR brings me great peace from all of the violence around the world, who knows, maybe that’s why you find CR attractive–like I said, I can’t tell, but I hope you remember their love for peace when you visit or interact with the people of CR, they deserve our respect for their political ideology and the way they behave and expect others to behave while in their country…
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