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You as the dealer received the MSO but it then went to the state, not the end user. Correct. Why the state collects the mso’s I don’t know why.
[quote=”jmcbuilder”]You as the dealer received the MSO but it then went to the state, not the end user. Correct. Why the state collects the mso’s I don’t know why.[/quote]
Actually it was provided to the purchaser, who in turn surrendered it to the state or country where the buyer chose to register and/or title the boat.
I have no idea why the state required the MSO either, and I imagine they would be hard pressed to provide the original or even a digitized copy if required to do so.
On that same point, we were asked by dozens of customers to provide a replacement MSO for those that were lost or misplaced prior to applying for registration or title, and all we had to do was contact the importer, provide a copy of the sales receipt showing the serial number of the boat, and we received a new MSO for the customer – no questions asked!
The result is still the same. The end user does not hold the mso or true ownership papers. They receive a title from the state. I have never been a dealer and the order of transfer might not be spot on. Have you ever heard of someone having the mso returned to them from the state as the end user. Also I said that buying with gold would provide true ownership. I also said I thought it would be difficult to retain mso papers and buying with gold is uncommon, how you would petition for your rights would be difficult if not impossible.
[quote=”jmcbuilder”]The result is still the same. The end user does not hold the mso or true ownership papers. They receive a title from the state. I have never been a dealer and the order of transfer might not be spot on. Have you ever heard of someone having the mso returned to them from the state as the end user. Also I said that buying with gold would provide true ownership. I also said I thought it would be difficult to retain mso papers and buying with gold is uncommon, how you would petition for your rights would be difficult if not impossible.[/quote]
2 points, if one paid with gold or fiat currency (cash), would not the result be the same, you would get a title? I don;t think that the title discriminates against a gold or cash purchase. The only discrimination would be if it was financed and there is a lien holder.
Second, I suspect that the states hold the MSO and copy of title for taxing purposes and/or to verify the correct owner via serial number. I suspect that it is more for taxing purposes, annual registration for “owning” the vessel is BIG dollars, esp here in Fla where there are more boats than any other state.
Title is not ownership. It only entitles you to certain rights of use. The legal system is full of messy transfers, perhaps by you surrendering the mso you have in some form given up your ownership rights. The signing of tax returns has some of the same effects or not responding to a claim that you owe a creditor and the debt becoming fact.
Sure, the state holds the ownership papers so they can tax but they also can confiscate.
[quote=”jmcbuilder”]Title is not ownership. It only entitles you to certain rights of use. The legal system is full of messy transfers, perhaps by you surrendering the mso you have in some form given up your ownership rights. The signing of tax returns has some of the same effects or not responding to a claim that you owe a creditor and the debt becoming fact.
Sure, the state holds the ownership papers so they can tax but they also can confiscate.[/quote]
Confiscation is subject to anything, whether or not you bought it with gold or fiat. The fact remains that any government, as long as you are inside of it’s borders, could confiscate anything in your possesion. The US does it often with land, imminant domain. The US even confiscates $ from people not inside of it’s borders.
So do you really own anything?
Guys, guys! Isn’t a “Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin” just that — a statement by the manufacturer of where the boat (or whatever) originated and nothing more? Doesn’t it, in fact, say something to the effect that this boat was manufactured in “such and such a place and by such and such a company”. In what way does that statement of a fact confer ownership to anyone?
I draw a comparison with my own birth record. The doctor who delivered me completed paperwork that identified me, named the source of me, and set out the other circumstances of my birth. But none of that conferred ownership of me upon the doctor. And it had nothing to do with the currency in which the bill was paid. All it did was set out the facts of my birth just as a Manufacturer’s Statement of Ownership sets out the facts of the origin of the boat that Bill sold.
And if holding a title in one’s own name does not constitute legal ownership of the property, just what does? If the title I hold to my car doesn’t confer ownership upon me, what legal document confers ownership on some other entity?
[quote=”DavidCMurray”]Guys, guys! Isn’t a “Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin” just that — a statement by the manufacturer of where the boat (or whatever) originated and nothing more? Doesn’t it, in fact, say something to the effect that this boat was manufactured in “such and such a place and by such and such a company”. In what way does that statement of a fact confer ownership to anyone?
I draw a comparison with my own birth record. The doctor who delivered me completed paperwork that identified me, named the source of me, and set out the other circumstances of my birth. But none of that conferred ownership of me upon the doctor. And it had nothing to do with the currency in which the bill was paid. All it did was set out the facts of my birth just as a Manufacturer’s Statement of Ownership sets out the facts of the origin of the boat that Bill sold.
And if holding a title in one’s own name does not constitute legal ownership of the property, just what does? If the title I hold to my car doesn’t confer ownership upon me, what legal document confers ownership on some other entity?
[/quote]
David……..I hate to admit this, but that actually makes sense.
Did they have doctors back then David? Thank you I’ll be here all week, don’t forget to tip your waiters and waitresses. Just ribbing you friend!
Yes, there were doctors even way back then. This particular one had a bone in his nose to denote his status. The results speak for themselves.
BTW, if I don’t actually own something then, by definition, the government cannot confiscate it.
In fact the mso is the ownership papers. Title allows certain rights including transfer of those use rights. Tricks are played on us all the time. In the US we don’t own our cars. It reminds me of a tax break about twenty years ago. The San Francisco Chronicle reported. The tax break was written so complicated that the irs would save 5 billion dollars because most people could not take advantage of the b
reak they would qualify for.It depends on what your definition “it” is (Bill C). Or what the difference is between on your birth certificate all capital letters used in your name or God given with just the first letters in your name used. There is a big difference.
[quote=”jmcbuilder”]In fact the mso is the ownership papers. Title allows certain rights including transfer of those use rights. Tricks are played on us all the time. In the US we don’t own our cars. It reminds me of a tax break about twenty years ago. The San Francisco Chronicle reported. The tax break was written so complicated that the irs would save 5 billion dollars because most people could not take advantage of the break they would qualify for.
It depends on what your definition “it” is (Bill C). Or what the difference is between on your birth certificate all capital letters used in your name or God given with just the first letters in your name used. There is a big difference.[/quote]
jmc – this is a very interesting discussion, raising points that I had not considered previously; however, I’m not sure how paying with gold, silver, diamonds, enriched uranium, plutonium or any other “precious” substance would have changed anything.
We would still be obligated to issue the MSO in the same manner, and likewise, the buyer would be obligated to submit that MSO to the state to receive title (i.e., the “bundle of rights” associated with the buyer’s use of the vessel on the water’s of the state where registered).
What changed?
I’m not sure anything would be different. The game is rigged and even if you were in the right how you could prevail is uncertain. I have never been an advocate of metals either. The government would just take your gold, like was done in the past. If the world came apart and gold had some value (something I don’t subscribe to)The governments of the world would just steal it under the guise of national security or something like that. My problem is that I believe the dollar has been intentionally undermined in an attempt to further the globalist agenda. Costa Rica will follow just like the rest of the world.
[quote=”jmcbuilder”]I’m not sure anything would be different. The game is rigged and even if you were in the right how you could prevail is uncertain. I have never been an advocate of metals either. The government would just take your gold, like was done in the past. If the world came apart and gold had some value (something I don’t subscribe to)The governments of the world would just steal it under the guise of national security or something like that. My problem is that I believe the dollar has been intentionally undermined in an attempt to further the globalist agenda. Costa Rica will follow just like the rest of the world.[/quote]
Reflecting on the status of the world and where I think we are ultimatley headed. The only ones that have it figured out are the indigenous tribes in the Amazon. They move freely from place to place, following the food. They don’t worry about MSO’s, titles, taxes, or whether Costa Rica should dollarize. They live life as it was intended.
I wonder what their log in name would be on weloveCostaRica.com?
Hmmm . . . I’m not so sure the indigenous tribes of the Amazon have so much figured it out as simply been born into it and don’t know any other way. In that respect, they’re not so very different from us; only their circumstances differ.
As for their login name on WLCR.com, how about: “LiveFreeAndDieInChildbirth”?
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