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Lotus: (Sigh) I thought we were done with this. Guess you just can’t leave it alone, eh? Too bad.
First of all, to clarify: my comments about Germany were not and could not be racist. Being German is not a race, just a nationality. Sorry, I know there was a lot of loose talk in the 1940’s about Germany and the master race but, gosh, you German folks never made it to the race category. You lost. Guess you will just have to settle for being a nationality like the rest of us; how sad!
Secondly, concerning my qualifications to even have an opinion about Germany: You may have traveled in Germany; good for you. On the other hand, during the period 1971 to 2003, I lived there for a total of 19 years as an adult. Additionally, I lived in multiple locations: Giessen, Stuttgart, Kirchheim/Teck and Heidelberg; a good sampling of German geography. While living and working there, I traveled extensively both in- and out-side of Germany. No, I was not the typical American in Europe. I spoke German before I arrived there. I started my career teaching German and was fully equipped both to understand the German media as well as my German neighbors. I never lived on a military installation but rather within the local German community. I have lectured in German to German doctoral students at German universities. I would suggest that there are few Americans who have had the intensive German experience I have had.
Thirdly, I too have had the German oom-pah experience you describe. It’s real and it’s fun; end of story. It does not define who they are as a people or a culture any more than Mardi Gras defines American culture. You have to get past that. I enjoyed my time in Germany as best as I could. As one might expect, I had some good times and some not so good times. How could it be otherwise; it’s just part of life.
Fourthly, I never made any claim that the U.S. was the model of perfection for all others to emulate and that all that has happened here has been right or just. So, please, could you just let it go? I note with interest, however, that even today, no country receives or grants more requests for immigration than the U.S. Even today with all the bad world press of Iraq, Afghanistan, Gitmo, Cheney, Bush, Enron, fixed elections, etc., in most any mid- to large-size city in the U.S., you will find a monthly ceremony where hundreds of people from around the world hold an American flag in their hands and with tears of gratitude pledge allegiance to the United States, their chosen new home. I have seen such ceremonies. I believe it would be good for all Americans to see such a ceremony, just my opinion. (Hope it does not seem to narrow and racist.)
Fifthly, a course in sociology might prove useful to you after all. Sociology teaches (among many other things) the use of generalizations is not inappropriate except when applied to individual persons. We all must generalize to make our way through life. We get burned touching one hot stove and generalize that it would hurt to touch any hot stove. There are valid generalizations to be made about culture and specific cultures. Sorry, but there is significant evidence to support the idea that most people in China think, feel, talk differently about certain things than do people in Sicily. It’s a fact. You write that negative generalizations are always in bad taste and serves no real usefulness. I disagree. For example, I have been to Egypt several times on business. I generalize that the public areas in Cairo are dirty. It’s a simple fact. Such a generalization is not in bad taste and does, in fact, serve a real usefulness as it might help to prepare a first-time traveler to Cairo concerning what to expect.
Finally, while I basically agree that when I travel to other countries, I should behave as a guest and try to learn. Those are good principles. For the record, however, I was not in Germany as a guest. I had no visa from the German government to be there; I did not need their permission to be there. I was there as part of the United States Armed Forces. We were there quite simply because we had to be. I hate to generalize, but it was Germany (and the German people) who started not one but two world wars in the last century. I know that may be embarassing to some, but alas, it is true.
I meant to offend nobody, however, I stand by my original statements. As I wrote previously to Senta, we may have differing opinions. Fine with me; I have no compulsion to make everyone else share my opinion, but it will not stop me from expressing mine when I wish to do so. If your worldview will not accommodate differing opinions, that is your concern and not mine. I say, Hooray for Diversity! mikeI know I don’t have too much experiance with Germany but I have been there a couple times in the last couple of years. I do have a question because I did meet a lot of people and did a informal pole.
On the trains,bars and public I would strik up conversations many times I found my self talking with people that were not german. (this was about 90% of the time) I would ask were they going to stay in Germany, How did they like living in Germany. Most of these people were from the old eastern block countrys but some were from Africa. All of them said they didn’t like Germany and they were only there for the free education. They said they could not get high paying jobs because they were prevented by the Germans and they were discriminated against. When asked if they wanted to go to the U.S. 100% of them said that was their end goal. At this moment the German Govermant is having huge financial problems because of their liberal views of social programs. I am just wondering if the people in this blog and tell me what their experiance on this? I would have to say I asked these quesitons about 20 times, I would have to note that most germans would not talk to me if they did they would slam the U.S.Wow…I never suggested anywhere in my short comments any one “world view”, simply presented my own experience there and with Germans. My experience is no more or less valid than yours…just different. You seem to imply though that your opinions are absolute, perhaps that’s from your military education? Racism (the word) is not really used correctly anyway; although when we use it to imply that one hates another “race” most people understand what we are talking about. It seems racist would really imply we are for “our” race. Also for the record race, religion, and nationality are all un important classifications to me, God bless the world so to speak…not just America.. I will agree that generalizing can in some instances be useful, but to use an example about the cleanliness of the streets of Cairo to say all Ticos are lazy, all Jews are cheap all whites are the devil lol!, then it becomes stereotyping….And anyway an individuals particular ideas of someone’s general traits are only consistent with there point of view and experience, quite flawed. You seem annoyed that someone has a different point of view than yours; I only read your post for the first time today and decided to respond. If you prefer to only express your point of view perhaps you should write books?
“They treat each other coldly and treat outsiders (all non-Germans) even worse. Remember the 5,000,000? Not very Christian behavior, I think?
This statement is downright offensive, and somewhere in your post you say you want to focus on the positive traits in people? Lol!!!Another big flaw with most generalizing is that it is relative to the persons point of view and cultural experience. If you were to write “The roads in Costa Rica are terrible”, that statement will mean one thing to someone in California and another to someone in Bangledesh. You suppose that all people share your Americentric perspective, and that simply is not the case. If you were having a private discussion with a friend with a similar experience as you, perhaps it is useful. But in a global chatroom it is a bit ignorant to speak in general terms and consider this reasonabble. If anything this type of thinking is a bit old fashioned.
Edited on Jul 20, 2006 10:47
To lotus: I learned not to respond to narrow minded people anymore. If this particular person keep insisting that all Germans are cold and not Christians etc. and if those type of idiotic comments it makes him happy so be it. Remember, depending of ones attitude one will get the response he/she deserves. There is good and bad in every race. Christ quoted “Let the wheat and the tare grow together, then at the end I’ll separate them”. We can not judge or even try to figure people’s deeds. Only God know the heart. So I refuse to try to listen to anymore nonsense.
To: Perezm
You need to get your history straight. It was England and France that declared war on Germany, get your facts, go to the library and find out, they declared war the first and second time. You seem to know a lot about nothing.senta: You are quite simply mistaken. You are revisionist in both your history and your response.
I stated that Germany started World War I and World War II.
That statement is absolutely correct and I stand by it.Respected and accepted accounts of history of that period clearly state that World War II started when Germany invaded Poland and subsequently declared war. Any other version of what happened is erroneous. I will be glad to provide a list of historical references to support my claim if you really need such data.
You say I “seem to know a lot about nothing.” You seem to know nothing about a lot!
Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, and as a result WWII was officially started. Where on earth did anyone get the idea that Engalnd and France declared war on Germany. They retaliated in response to Germany’s aggression, but it was Hitler and the Nazi machine that started the whole mess.
My father wos wright just before i left my contry 50 years ago he sad my son stay away from religion and politishen he wos so wright because of religion and politishen see what hapening… blood shed!
Antonic, I have to vehemantly disagree with the advice of your Father. It sounds like a pacifist philosophy and I just can not accept that. I am sure he was a good man and had the best intentions for you and your family when giving advice. However, you can not bury your head in the sand and just hope that the rest of what the world is involved in doesn’t effect you. WW II and most of Europe, especially countries like France are glaring expamples of the failure of the pacifist philosophy. At some point you have to stand up for what is right. Of course “what is right” is a another debate entirely, but you can not detach yourself from the rest of the world unless you are truly somewhere that you can totally sustain yourself throuhout your life with no outside influence and don’t care about the future generations. Very, very few people are in that type of situation. Again, you have to sometimes fight for what you feel is right. I think countries and individuals critisize to quickly countries like the US for trying to do what is right. Many may disagree with the individual politics of an individual President or other leader, but it is not even arguable what different terrorist organizations are doing currently around the world in the name of their personal religions. Yes, many things have been done in the name of Christianity through out history, but there really is no comparison to what is taking place today with in the radical world of Islam. Too many countries today are so concerned on wanting to be on the right side of history they change their position as rapidly as the political polls change. Costa Rica is one example, and is the reason I think this is valid for this forum. Costa Rica originally supported the invasion of Iraq and the removal of Sudam Hussien. A very valid and commendable position. Now that much of the world has cold feet and fails to see the bigger picture they want to try and revise the history of their own support for what happened just a couple of years ago. People are either too young to know, or have blinders on and don’t want to remember that when the coalition of forces finally defeated Germany in WW II it took about 6 years for all of the fighting in Germany to finally be squelched. There were pockets of resitence even though Hitler was gone and most of the high ranking officials in the thrid Riech had either been eliminated or fled. Todays fight is no less a battle for civilization as we know it than it was the case in WW II. Study Islam…..it is not a religion of peace. The biggest difference between the religion of Christianity and Islam is Christianity does not preach to it’s believers that anyone that does not conform to Christianity should either be enslaved or killed. Again, yes some things have been done in the name of Christianity in the past, by misguided individuals. Nothing on the scale of what radical Islam is trying to do today. Christianity basically says, this is what we believe and we care about you, and we hope you accept what we believe. You can not look at the terrorist organizations operating through out the world today in the name of Islam and make the same comparison.
What appalling ignorance.
Anyone who reads the New Testament will surely know that there is no mention of Catholics. They didn’t come along for 300 years.
The first believers in Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, were obviously Jews. Every one of the apostles was Jewish. How could anyone in his (or her) right mind believe they had anything to do with the Vatican? There was no Vatican.
And of course since the Christian religion was sidetracked to make it more politically correct to the pagans it became something entirely different and certainly not what God intended. Indeed in the early fourth century they threw out everything Jewish including all of God’s feast days and replaced them with pagan ones. What they didn’t know was that in doing that they were also throwing out the real Jesus. Jesus always was Jewish but He’s been turned into a Greek-Roman, blond haired, blue eyed, plastic replica. The wonderful thing is though, that the REAL Jesus is still alive, and you can find Him if you reject the false one and read the Bible instead of listing to false teachers.
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