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[quote=”countdown”]Absolutely no offense intended to Dave, who is a great, long-time contributor and very fair in his comments.
As one of those in the “without” category, I am happy for him and envious of the lifetime pension and health benefits, (although Dave has posted about difficulties [u]using[/u] health benefits, particularly here!)
In the US Crackdown (this thread), hopefully those of us who’ve “rolled our own” only to watch it shrivel, and still have the government looking greedily at the remainder, might be forgiven if we bridle a bit when confronted with pensions and guaranteed medical.
Thanks for your understanding Dave.
CD[/quote]countdown, first you need to know that I do, in fact, take offense, serious offense, at your use of the term “feeding at the public trough”. It sounds like the description of a welfare program and while I did work in welfare for a couple of years, my part was unquestionably [b]work[/b], not welfare.
While you and your ilk were busy pursuing your own selfish interests, whoring after every buck, my fellow public servants and I were doing the dirty jobs that left you free to pursue your fortunes. That things have not worked out perfectly for you is a genuine shame. (With apologies to Bill Clinton, “I feel your pain [too].”) Those same things haven’t worked out too well for me, either.
But the fact remains that I did invest in my State retirement.
Had you checked some of those facts, you would know . . .
that monies invested in my name in the State retirement fund were diverted from the resources otherwise available to compensate me in those years. I never had a choice. In the golden years, when some folks were earning 18% or more on their investments, my opportunities were stagnant.
that monies invested in the Michigan retirement fund are totally separate from any other State funds. Should those funds become depleted, I’ll be left high and dry. It’s not so different from your own situation save for the fact that very astute money managers (State employees all, by the way) have done a good job with the investments — so far.
that at no time in my State career did I ever have any influence whatsoever over the rate of my pay, the physical conditions under I which worked, or any other condition of my employment. There were no merit raises, no bonuses, no incentive pay. Everything (everything) was dictated from above.
that at no time was the State pay scale ever adjusted to fully account for the increase in the cost of living. Even in years when I got a promotion, my buying power still fell behind the rate of inflation.
that I never earned an hourly rate equal to the regular hourly rate of an unskilled auto assembler.
that I was never eligible for overtime pay. Even in weeks when I worked as many as a hundred hours, I never saw a dime for it.
that the monies invested in my name remain the property of the State save for the monthly disbursements. That is to say that, while you can leave your investments, deflated as they may be today, to your heirs, I am left with nothing to bequeath. So while the money you invested may recover, if I die tomorrow it’s all down the drain — permanently.
and that there is no provision for any meaningful cost of living adjustment in my State pension. If we are hit with a period of high inflation, which may help restore the depleted value of your investments, I’ll be left with the same absolute number of dollars each month . . and no prospect of recovery.
Oh, and one more thing . . . While I worked for the State and since I retired, I haven’t complained about any of the foregoing.
Now, imx has already shared with us his total and unequivocal distain for anything and everything ever done by the public sector or that ever might be done. He has a right to his opinion. But you try to get along for a day without the services provided by your governments at all levels and see how far you get. Next time you go over a bridge, think about who put it there.
And do this, too . . . The next time you deal with a public servant, be a mensch. Tell him or her about “feeding at the public trough”. Say it to his or her face.
[quote=”maravilla”]i got a kick out of this article. i’ve already implemented some of these suggestions on my own, but it is certainly food for thought. jejejej
Great site! Thanks Maravilla!“Now, imx has already shared with us his total and unequivocal distain for anything and everything ever done by the public sector or that ever might be done. He has a right to his opinion. But you try to get along for a day without the services provided by your governments at all levels and see how far you get. Next time you go over a bridge, think about who put it there.”
If governments stuck to the basics and didn’t feel the need to be everything to everyone I’d be fine with that… but as we’ve seen over the last century… government are ruining man’s ability and DESIRE to do for himself… and the cost of such change is now only coming home to roost! Each generation over the last century have expected more from big brother… and have been unwilling or unable to pays for it! Two years ago all the conversations were about the dire state of Social Security and Medicare… both major timebombs waiting to implode! And here we are talking about ANOTHER major government program that will drag the US under! Much like the folks out there that couldn’t pay their bills and continue their “lifestyle”… and the answer they came up with was to go shopping! And please don’t buy the “We’ll save money over the long run” line! The idea that you can take failed programs and somehow find the money to create others is CRAZY!
Give it 10 more years and see where we are… my guess is it will make the problems we’ve been slapped with in the last three years look like a picnic!
I really don’t have a problem with government… just have them FIX the problems they’ve created before they pretend to take on another for the “good” of the people!
So, imx, you’d be for an immediate pullout from Iraq and Afghanistan? There are a couple of governmental moneypits that aren’t contributing to anything but the budget deficit.
Of course, we’ve already established that Social Security and Medicare are those failed programs you refer to, right? So you’re in favor of doing away with both, right? (If we’re talking about [b]your[/b] Social Security and Medicare, then of course I’m with you all the way.)
And, by the way, how’s about you come out of the closet and tell us who you are and what your background is? I don’t think I’ve been able to pull up your profile in this forum.
Above, imx, said “If governments stuck to the basics and didn’t feel the need to be everything to everyone I’d be fine with that. . . but . .”.
The problem with that sentiment is that everyone’s definition of “the basics” is different. I live in a safe community on a terrible road. To me, infrastructure should be government’s first priority. Scott, on the other hand, lives in a high-rise apartment not far from the executive mansion in downtown San Jose. He probably has good streets but would like more police protection. Those struggling to make ends meet would probably like some mortgage interest relief. AIDS patients, on the other hand, would like to see a lot more funding for the Centers for Disease Control. And anybody who’s not getting enough to eat would probably cast their vote for expanded food subsidies.
So how would you propose to reconcile all those competing interests, imx*? Just what are “the basics”? And who says your opinion should govern? Who put you in charge?
*or whatever your name is
Wow David , lets not get our panties in a bunch.
First from our earlier exchange, and you may not care considering the source, but I as an American would like to thank you for your service as a retired veteran.
That being said, you chose to live in a rural area with bad roads. Why should the government have to improve your roads with monies it takes from everyone else? Do you live in a highly productive region where the efficiency of movement for commerce is beneficial to the publics needs? There are many rural areas in Guanacaste that have terrible roads and the residents there meet, discuss and pool their monies to improve their infrastructures. They do not stand there with there hands out.
If someone is having problems with their mortgage, and I have been there, I don’t expect the government to come in and bail me out with your money.
However the police are there for enforcement of the rule of law which is the responsibility of government.
And the masses will vote for anyone that hands out free bees, free food, there in lays the problem.
The reason why our welfare programs are not working is this feeling of entitlement. You get much more in America if you do nothing. Our welfare programs are destroying the fabric of American families and the teachings of hard work and commitment. Our schools are being watered down so that everyone can be equal. Well I’m here to tell you we are not all equal in our desires and abilities. There will always be those with and those without. I’ve worked hard all my life to earn that which I have and I reject your or anyone’s notion that the majority has the right to take that which is mine and give it to someone else they feel more deserving.
We now have the entire world standing there with their hands out through some orchestrated farce trying to extort monies from America. The dictator of Rhodesia Patrick Mogabe wants to know where his money is. Wake up before you give us all away.
And to Imx. He was just expressing his position (feelings), that’s what this forum is about. I think you lost some of your focus as your blood pressure was rising while you typed.Clayton, what I said in response to imx’ post was
“The problem with that sentiment is that everyone’s definition of “the basics” is different.”
And I posed the question of who is to decide. My point, which you obviously missed, is that the problem with imx’ sentiment about “the basics” lies in practical application.
You bemoan the welfare system, and I share much of that sentiment. We might agree that supporting those who won’t make the effort for themselves isn’t productive, and we (you and I) can certainly agree that it isn’t personally satisfying (to us). The problem lies, however, in crafting an acceptable, equitable solution. One might be to put all the children at risk into orphanages, as was proposed by Newt Gingrich. That would come with its own set of new problems, of course.
Another might be to let them starve. That would solve a lot of problems. As long as they’re out of sight, what do you or I care? Question is, are you really ready for that? Recent revelations about the economy show that one in four children in the U.S. are or will become dependent upon Food Stamps. Many, many more receive free or reduced price school lunches and breakfasts which contribute significantly to their nutritional welfare . . . and thus to their physical and educational development.
If you’re willing to pull those and other supports (including but not limited to: the WIC Program, public health vaccinations, Medicaid, the Crippled Children’s Program, and a host of others) out from under those children, just say so.
But when you do, do this, too . . . Tell us the names of those closest to you personally, your own children and grandchildren. For as ready as you are to cut the unnamed “them” off, I’m equally willing to add your loved ones to the list. I am as prepared to see your own family go down the drain as you are to see “them”. You have no special standing to decide.
Now if any of that makes you uncomfortable, then you begin to appreciate the problem of practical application.
No I got your point, and understand the need to define “basics” and not to be confused with the definition of “is”. Much like all the liberal advertising you see on TV you to parade the children in front of you.
No I do believe the children need to be cared for if their families are not willing or unable to help. But we promote this culture or I could say rewards their actions. There are children(girls) that will stand up and tell a teacher she does not have to listen to her anymore, as soon as she has her baby and starts getting government funding and with more babies comes more funding. I suspect there are plenty of instances that these children would be better off in foster care than living in drug cultured tenements and if the parents want to keep their children they need to earn that right or prove they are a positive influence on their well being.You hit the nail on the head, Families!! what the hell happened to the tight nit family unit that took care of their own in a crisis? Destroyed by the Welfare mentality and the give me your money or I will take it mentality of our own Government. Yes I will say right now… get rid of welfare, if help is needed the family should come first then the Church. The American People should not be Taxed more than what they Tithe to their church and that is 10%. If people were able to keep what they earn and give to a charitable cause they wish to contribute to then there would not be a Welfare/Slave Mentality that is pervasive through out our Country.
An old saying…. When people can vote themselves more money taken from their fellow citizens (including Government employees voting theier own raises and perks) then it will be the end of freedom and the producers become the slaves of the Welfare and government subsidies. in the same breath Welfare recipients become slaves to Government Largess and lose the ability to produce for themselves…. Yes, The Government should and are Obligated to Protect and Defend the Constitution of the UNITED STATES. They SWORE an OATH. Now they stomp all over the Constitution and the Flag. The American People are to be blamed for this for being asleep at the wheel for all this Corruption to take place now out in the open for everyone to see. When more people are unemployed the burdon gets heavier for those that are working, until the breaking point. At that point The S**T hits the proverbial Fan. Anything goes then.
I have said it and happy to have said it. Where is John Galt when we could use his wisdom.YOU AIN’t seen nothing yet;
hold on to your pants because part II will not be pretty and we will soon roll into part III which will be very troubling and taxing to all of us. we are sliding way back into a HOLE thinking we are climbing out of it.
do you really think the American people are “stupid” and they don’t know what is happening, the #’s are skewed from unemployment to the deficit and they are REAL but like others they think it’s just a matter of time and we will be all right
and they are WRONG
you cannot unravel 8 years of wrong in 8 days or 8 weeks, not 8 months, the damage done will take many, many more years to fix
now that I have let my RANT out, PLEASE excuse me and I mean all of you
warren
clayton, you wrote
“I suspect there are plenty of instances that these children would be better off in foster care . . .”
[b]Question:[/b] How many of these children (say that quarter of all children in the U.S. who are or will become Food Stamp-dependent) are you willing to take in as a foster parent, to take into your own home? Tell us a number?
How many have you already taken in? Tell us a number.
Contact your local child welfare agency and ask them how many approved foster families have space for another child. You’re in for a shock.
How much are you prepared to pay foster parents to do what you advocate if it’s not you who’ll take them in? Tell us a number.
And, by the way, you haven’t yet told us which of your family members I get to put on the list of dispensibles.
Practical application is where the rubber meets the road.
philharmonic, you wrote
“. . get rid of welfare, if help is needed the family should come first then the Church. The American People should not be Taxed more than what they Tithe to their church and that is 10%.”
So, are you now suggesting a flat 10% tithe to “the church” and that all public functions, all community needs should be met through “the church’s” administration? What about those who do not belong to “the church”? What about the church’s own administrative costs? And in your worldview can we non-Catholics expect “the church” to put out our house fires, test our water and build our bridges and roads?
It’s an intriguing prospect. I’m confident that the public’s needs for painted frescoes and golden domes will be well met, but I’m skeptical about how the church will handle sewage treatment, the Mississippi River levee system, and western wildfires. Maybe you have a plan?
Yes I do advocate a 10% accross the board tax for individuals and Business. Tithing to the church is Voluntary as it should be. Again with strong families and Strong community ties and the Churches that are in it to help those that are in need, people will not fall through the cracks, and would be given help to get back on their feet and make their own business or to get a job, but not put on a permanent payroll without working for their pay (Welfare). With Taxes at 10%, people would be able to give to the charity they wish to or not give to. that is Freedom. If you read the CONSTITUTION it says exactly what our Government Cannot do. It limits their power. They have stepped so far over the line, that the CONSTITUTION has no basis in their Governance. That will change and it has started. If you wish to hide your head in the Sand and live your life under Government control and what THEY decide what is good for you, then your gonna have a rude awakening. They will come to Costa Rica and drag your A** back to the States, because you do not deserve to not live under another Flag and be Free while your an American Citizen. Think Berlin Wall. Don’t think CR won’t extridite you back, cause they will be cut off the American dole just as fast, as they cut off Honduras for living up to it’s Constitution and Kicking out their up an comng Dictator.
If the American public really knew, and cared, how much of their tax dollars were being wasted and missused by the covert agencies and the pentagon; none of us would ever pay taxes again! Ever wonder why you see so many U.S. M-4 and M-16 rifles in central and south america paramilitary and military hands, if you pay close attention to CNN and foreign news broadcasts; you will notice your tax dollars displayed with 20 or 30 round magazines.
Phil, you wrote, “Yes I do advocate a 10% accross the board tax for individuals and Business.”
In 2000, Steve Forbes, then running for president, advocated a 17% flat tax. At the time, actual economists generally agreed that it would take a flat 22% to fund government at it’s then-current (pre-Iraq, pre-Afganistan) level of spending.
Can you tell us just how you arrived at the figure of 10.0%? It’s easy to throw numbers around; it’s harder to back them up with actual thinking.
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