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[quote=”DavidCMurray”]And that freedom to worship in any we wish has implicit within it the freedom not to worship at all. Freedom [b]of[/b] religion surely implies equally freedom [b]from[/b] religion.[/quote]
Which then means that one person can dictate to millions that they have no right to freedom of expression.
Being reasonable would mean that the child would exit the room for the minute or so that it takes to recite the pledge…but then who wants to be reasonable?
If you noticed in my earlier rant. People thought I was crazy in the sixties for speaking about these things that have been done and are about to be done. I am still speaking about these things, but people don’t think I’m that crazy anymore. If you knew me when the Patriot Act was Passed you would have thought I was un-American for opposing that legislation. Again I have said from the beginning, They have been laying the Ground work for many years. It doesn’t matter who is in office Dem or Repub. Apparently you only read what you want to read. WE WILL BURY YOU ….FROM WITHIN Kruchev, while pounding on a table with his shoe.:lol::lol::lol:
[quote=”DavidCMurray”]imx, we’ve already established that, in your reality, no government program past, present or future can, by definition, succeed. No need to beat that dead horse.
When you lurk behind a pseudonym in a forum like this, you detract from the value of what you write. First, we readers have no idea of whether you have any standing to say what you say because we cannot consider the source. Would you, for example, accept the medical opinions of somebody whose credentials you cannot assess? Second, you leave the impression that you don’t have the courage of your convictions either. I’m willing to stand up and have what I say be evaluated in light of who and what I am. Why aren’t you?
You may or may not know that Scott, our intrepid host, can track your IP address back to its source. No doubt others can, too. So you should be prepared for the fact that whatever you write can, indeed, be traced back to you. The Internet Boogeyman is already lurking under your bed. Cowering behind a pseudonym won’t make him go away.
The impression you leave is like someone heckling from the back of a darkened theatre. Come out into the light and let us see who’s making all that noise.
The other possibility, of course, is that whatever follows “imxploring . . .” is the detritus left behind by a failed experiment in artificial intelligence self-generated by an old Commodore that somebody forgot to unplug.[/quote]
Hey David… Well if you’ve already concluded that any government plan is doomed to failure (“no government program past, present or future can, by definition, succeed.”… your words…)…. then why in the world would we want to attempt to take on a whooper when the US is in such an economic tailspin? Can jumping to another project achieve anything more than distracting the population from how bad things real are?
As for your self indulgent attempts at insult…. I enjoyed them… very cleaver… but I missed the part where you ADDRESSED any of the ISSUES I brought up in my prior post… perhaps it was an oversight on your part… or perhaps the issues where less interesting than attacking the messenger rather than having to formulate a reply.
I’m not “lurking, hiding, or cowering” behind a pseudonym… I’ll let my words stand on their own. Just as yours do… because as I said… just because you claim to be someone on the internet doesn’t make it true… and even if I did post with a full name as you do… would it matter? Do you know who I am, my background, education, work experience, or mental status for that matter? Your picture could be taken in a mental ward somewhere during “pet” therapy and the cat isn’t even yours! LOL You could be the biggest fool on the block… got run out of the last town you lived in by folks with pitch forks and axes… retired from a job where you were so hated that they held your retirement party in a phone booth and still had room for a band… who knows! Let your view and words make your position… not who you think you are!
Does using your name and picture somehow make you believe that your opinion is superior to that of all the others that post here… does it make you self important to a degree that you really believe that your words and views should be looked upon as of higher value then mine or others that chose not to hang their information on all those telephone poles? I have no fear of the boogeyman… my IP address mean nothing as it is not attached to any information that’s on the NET that would do me any harm…. nor embarrass me. Can you say the same?
Besides… doing a quick survey of active users that post here…. besides you and Scott… the VAST MAJORITY of contributor use a pseudonym… are their opinions and views not be treated with any real credence as well in your mind? Or is it just mine that bothers you so very much? Should I post a picture to be treated as your equal? Or is that even possible?
Please don’t insult my courage or conviction and attempt label me as a heckler in a darkened theatre to sway a discussion… it’s an old ploy… and not something the folks here will buy into! Besides some of the BIGGEST fools choose to jump into the spotlight and open their mouths… why not reply to some of the issues I brought up and prove that’s not the case here.
[quote=”Imxploring”][quote=”DavidCMurray”]When you lurk behind a pseudonym; You could be the biggest fool on the block[/quote]
This has gotten off into a series of personal attacks rather than a discussion of the issues.
If you look at the history of the U.S it is a history of two Americas.
The first U.S., from 1776 until WW I in 1917 and accelerated with WW II in 1941, the U.S. was pretty much a backwater nation. What we lost during and after those two wars was our family connections. Up until then families generally hung together in the same households or at least the same communities. Most homes were multi-generational and the generation or generations in the middle provided for the care of the oldest and youngest generations.
World War I brought about a change and the second war propelled young men from the farms and cities to new places that they found interesting enough that many of them returned to their original homes only briefly and then left for other places thy had seen. They married in locations distant from their parents and the family disconnect was in progress. The older generation no longer had the close support of their children and grand children.
Since the Second World War we have been a nation on the move. We have relied more and more on the government to provide the assistance that had been previously provided by close family ties. There were a host of additional factors like the availability of employment, corporations buying out family farms as examples which added to the family disconnect.
Now the U.S. is certainly in decline. I think we all agree on that point. We wont see the destruction of the U.S. as happened to Rome. It will simply become “just another nation” among many.
The return to our previous multi-generational families is not possible. Who then cares for your mother and father in their old age? You can say “My parents are well set in their retirement.” or “My retirement is assured.” but certainly all of us will not be well set for retirement.
If you divorce, who cares for your children? Many men are not providing the support that their children need and you can always take the tack of saying “Not me. I am a responsible father.” This then implies that you are able to see into the future and predict your future circumstances. What happens to you and your family if, God forbid, you become unable to provide for your family for any of a number of reasons?
Bureaucracies are, by their nature, not the most efficient or effective organizations to deal with these problems but what other options do you provide for us? I have seen no alternative solutions here. All I have read is the ranting of fear for the loss of a dollar to help someone you do not know and in whose shoes you and I have never and can never walk.
Are we our brothers keeper? or do we just ignore the vet who lost his limbs in war or a mother whose ex-husband has decided he will not pay for his progeny?
I reiterate a previous statement that I made: It is the responsibility of every citizen to make sure that only those who deserve our support are getting it.
waggoner41… Great posting! It touches on the main issue and change we’ve seen in society over the past 50 years that have created the mess we’re in! The family unit has been broken… and folks think government has to jump in and fill the void… BIG mistake!
Personal responsibility has been replaced with government handouts! Bad choices and conduct are rewarded with yet more handouts! And all the while this “help” is added to the US debt! It’s a cascading cycle that has now gone into overdrive… and has now placed us at the breaking point!
If something is not done SOON… some of us know what the outcome will be…. yet others, including our elected representatives don’t seem to get it!
Someone had previously posted that welfare (as well as over handouts) is slavery… I look at it a bit differently… it’s an addiction… a growing one in American society… be it individuals or corporations… and it’s time for rehab folks!
[quote=”Imxploring”]it’s an addiction…[/quote]
The addiction was created by the inaction of our elected Congressmen, all of them. So the issue remains: What is to be done to correct the problem of welfare?
I think you and I can agree that there are those who need and deserve our help.
WE ARE OUT BROTHERS KEEPER. There are several issues that need to be resolved along with the main.1 – The average voter in the U.S. does not take the time to think through the issues that are important to their lives. Economically they overspend, politically they vote their emotions and they pay little attention to the direction that our Congress is taking. The best example of this is how Social Security, initiated as a safety net for retirees, became a tax like any other that was available to the government to cover financial shortfall.
2 – If [b]bureaucracies[/b] are not the solution to running these programs then what?
[b]Commercial businesses[/b]? There are issues here, too, of profit and competition for a government guaranteed payout.
[b]Non-profit organizations[/b]? What issues might be faced in going this route?
[b]Foundations[/b] such as Bill Gates, George Soros and the Kaiser family (Kaiser Permanente) have initiated? How are the managers who run these foundations held accountable?Addressing the issue of managing a welfare system first, we have examples of each of our options.
Bureaucracies become management top-heavy and those who are appointed to run them do not necessarily have the skills or knowledge to manage them.
Commercial business requires a profit which, in this case, is inappropriate to the solution of reducing costs.
Do we have examples of non-profits that are well managed and are held accountable for the funds spent? I have investigated a few and am not enamored of the percentage used to run them.
Do we have examples of foundations that are well managed? This is a question that only the men and women who fund them can answer.
My thoughts, and I accept valid argument with alternative solutions, are these:
Social Security, as with any account with excess assets, should have been invested from the beginning. If this had been done we would not be discussing the issue of welfare. This was a huge lack of foresight on the part of every elected administration and Congress since 1938. I am not aware of any elected official who has thought issue about this much less proposed it in Congress.
Medicare and Medicaid were barely funded from the start. As should have been done with Medicare/Medicaid the first five years of any healthcare plan should be over funded.
There has to be a way to calculate the necessary over funding in order for investment purposes to assure that it is solvent from the start and there must be a limit for the over funding written into the legislation from its initiation with the stipulation that the funds can not be invested in any government issued instruments. Interests paid on Treasuries and government bonds are too low. We cannot depend on Congress to terminate the over funding when it has reached an adequate balance or to consider it a source of government funding as Social Security has become.
While it is true that the markets face downturns, look at the results that would have funded Social Security over the decades. I don’t believe you can find a decade in which investments were down.
Well said…. and a point I made in an earlier posting on this issue! Social Security and Medicare are both MAJOR issues that have been ignored while our representatives debate creating a “new” social program that will fail. Where do these people think the TRILLION dollars is going to come from to fund this scheme over the next decade?
As you said…. Social Security became nothing more than another tax that for the past 40 years that was a great revenue stream for Uncle Sam to use to cover other expenses! Other grand promises, programs, and give-aways that lacked funding. And all the while the SS “trust fund” was stuffed with IOUs… and ran a surplus that covered current benefit distributions… but now the bill is due… so not only has the surplus and revenue stream dried up… it’s become another budget expense to the general budget!
Folks better wake up to what’s going on… and soon! In one way I’m happy the Congress has passed this “BILL”… now they don’t have a smoke and mirrors agenda to distract to public while other BIGGER… more pressing… long overdue issues are addressed! The down side is that Charlie Rangel (D-NY) will have his hand in joining the two bills… remember him… he’s the guy that was using 3 rent control apartments in NY for his “office” while folks were being forced into the street… and had a couple of off shore investment properties (and their income) that fell off the radar…he’s an out and out lowlife that’s made a career of pulling one scam after another! And the two issues I point to are NOT old news… they’re very recent! If it wasn’t for his hue or the intelligence level of the folks electing him he’d be in jail by now! Folks truly do get the government they deserve!
Merry Christmas all!!
Merry Christmas All,
As you know, they just raised the Debt Limit again yesterday here in America. Trillions of Dollars, so now were supposed to be happy? HealthCare Bill Passed so a big load off, only a few Trillion here or there, till the next vote by the House Crooks, then back to the Senate thieves and Bribers, then to the Messiah, and finally, well you can guess. Happy New Year!quote=”Imxploring”] Folks better wake up to what’s going on… [/quote]
Speaking here is like keeping your voice under the basket, so to speak. Most of us, and I assume you, live in Costa Rica. We have “escaped?” from watching these things unfold directly.
This means that our discussion here is to a limited number of mostly like minded individuals no matter that the ideas we expound may differ.
All of the ideas that I present here are also presented to another limited group who remains in the States. Many are family but I have a following that has found me on Facebook and MySpace.
If you find ideas that you think are worthwhile here, carry them to other locations on the internet as I do. Our audiences will be limited but word spreads by “word of mouth” on the internet. I have asked “How did you find me?” and the response has been that they received a link by email from a friend. One responded to an email blast that I sent to all recipients of a virulent email denunciating immigrants. Most don’t respond but the idea is to get others to think, about solutions and about their decisions rather than just wailing and complaining about how bad things are getting
I don’t know every solution or even pretend to. I ask for criticism of my ideas, I ask for better ideas, I ask for argument that is well thought out. If I hear of anything better I incorporate it into my thinking.
Much of what I read here is laced with fear and anger neither of which promotes rational thinking.
I realize that the ideas that I have presented here would require a majority to stand up and say I’m not going to take it any more. To some I am a madman, to others a blithering idiot but if someone doesn’t start the ball rolling it will never start by itself.
There’s an interesting OpEd piece in this morning’s New York Times about the health care reform legislation currently making its way through Congress. You can read it for yourself at:
Paul Krugman has honest-to-gosh credentials in matters like these unlike so many commentators. If in doubt, see
[quote=”DavidCMurray”]interesting OpEd piece[/quote]
Thank you David.
“politics is the art of the possible” – Krugman
Hey David… Merry Christmas!
As for Krugman’s article…. other than the statement…
“Imperfect as it is, the legislation that passed the Senate on Thursday and will probably, in a slightly modified version, soon become law will make America a much better country.”
… he doesn’t make one point or statement of fact to explain or support this bill! Does he explain how it will work… or be paid for… or what the long term effects will be on Federal and State budgets? Instead you uses his time and space in the Times to LABEL those that oppose it! And in doing so he uses labels like “Crazy”… and “Fiscal Scolds”… which I take to mean anyone that might think government might have a way of paying for programs before they just implement them and toss the bill on America’s long term debt!
Not surprising that the Times would publish such an Op-Ed piece… with it’s Christmas theme and all… but does it really provide ANY meaningful information about this bill other than attacking those that oppose it?
Perhaps someone can point out to me how this article has ANY information in it that might educate and sway my position… and while I’m at it… let’s take a vote…. how many folks actually think Mr. Krugman has read the legislation he’s championing?
A nice fluff article that plays on the Christmas theme to give us that nice warm feeling inside! You would think for someone with such wonderful credentials he could provide some details that support his rosy view! Perhaps he will follow-up with a more detailed view that we’d all find more informative…. one can only hope!
Has anyone read the bill? including Obama and Congress. How about any Senators? Anyone??? I’m one of those Crazies, who wants to know exactly what’s in the bill before it is Law. That would be nice. HOPE and CHANGE and TRANSPARENCY, so nice to have such an Honest Government. Working out real good. Main stream Press are also doing a bang up job, keeping us informed of all the sweet little things that are going on.
Krugman, with his Ph.D. in economics, his Nobel prize in economics, and his long record of predicting the future with a significant degree of accuracy, is in a legitimate position to write an OpEd piece reflecting on matters economic without having to provide each and every figure to support his conclusions. There isn’t enough space. Were he to provide numbers ad infinitum to back up his legitimate conclusions, however, those like yourself, with your minds made up far in advance and with your own uncanny [i]a priori[/i] knowledge of all things future would nitpick the argument endlessly while continuing to contribute nothing.
You are welcome to take Krugman’s piece for the “fluff article” you deem it to be. Others, some with open minds, may see it differently. Should I find something of value to contribute to a future discussion, please don’t feel obligated to waste your time on it.
Again, It would be nice to have read the bill before it was signed and it would be nice to know what’s really in it before writing an OP-Ed piece on it and even predicting the future on it. Anytime someone hides the true nature of anything it is a pretty good indication that something is amiss and I have a problem with that. So far I haven’t seen anything that would lead me in any other direction than subterfuge and deceit from our elected officals and the press.
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