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HI,
Id like to thank Mr. Oliver for running such an informative and well-rounded website. Im a financial consultant from Southern California who has been in CR the past 2 weeks looking around for property to invest in.
I just wanted to warn others about some horror stories Ive heard about a company that calls themselves WorldWide Land Investments.
Apparently they “sell” land in guanacaste, but but do not deliver as far as providing clients with their due title.
Also, their founder was recently extradited to the US on charges of wire and telephone fraud. They appear to still be in business. Just thought I’d let people know. thanks. John
Thank you for your posting… We have had numerous complaints about this group but forgive me but for legal reasons I will edit your posting slightly
Scott Oliver – Founder
WeLoveCostaRica.comAbout the title thing I have to say that I find that unlikely. These people are probably not stupid and although they might not be making the best offer down here (not that I would know either way) why would they take such a dumb risk when all they have to do to avoid a fraud charge is deliver the Title? It makes no sense.
My guess is that title will be delivered although probably under duress. If they don’t own any land or don’t have an Option then that would be the most idiotic operation ever and your comments would be completely just. It would though really surprise me if they all wanted to go to jail here as I hear it not the most comfortable place and the room service is terrible (allegedly).
Do you know someone that has been refused title? Have you seen the contract?
Yours,
The bigger foolEdited on Sep 12, 2007 20:51
One small sentence was removed from this post by Scott
or a “short”…
These types of sales operations need product and the latest fad in the U.K. is to offer farmland to investors. This land comes without planning permission and lies within a zone known as the “greenbelt” around London. This area has been protected for years and will likely stay that way leaving these investors waiting in vain for the town planners to change the status of their land.
The mark-ups on this land are sometimes 50 times what the promotors paid for it and that’s without a Master Plan or even an attempt at obtaining planning permission. This could be defined as a buy and hold investment…..it’s just that the holding never ends!
On the bright side the children of these “land owners” may live to see the day when they can cash in, or, if the ethanol scam keeps going the way it is, it may just drive up land prices so far that even these people will get their money back in their lifetimes.
Edited on Sep 13, 2007 17:08
Simon you apparently haven’t had experience with many developers down here. This is not a personal critisism. The mistake many make down here is that they assume things are the way they are back in thier home country. Most of the larger developers will buy up large parcels of land and divide it into small lots and start selling those lots long before they even start the titling process. Many times even before confirming they can even get individual titles for lots. These developers incorporate high pressure phone sales marketing and end up selling the vast majority of their lots, sight unseen to buyers from all over the world. Once they have your money, you really have very little recourse. For the most part, your home countries judicial system has absolutely no jurisdiction to assist you in pursuing compensation when your contract is not fully honored. Many people do not have the extra resources to travel to Costa Rica, establish a relationship with an honest attorney, and then spend the time to persue legal action in Costa Rica against a given developer. As Scott can tell you, you can spend a small fortune here simply defending your self against law suits by developers suing you for deflamation simply because you publicly question their methods and point out their lack of follow through on committments. It still baffles many of us as to why people would purchase land, sight unseen and sometimes without even have ever visted Costa Rica. Even after being warned about questionable practices by some of these developers, people still hear what they want to hear and act on emotions instead of sound advice and sound information.
…and one more thing Lotus. If we rate them “avoid” wouldn’t we also have had to rate “Wellington” an “avoid” too based on the type of comments in this forum in the past? I would say so and yet aren’t you the one who recently told the story of how you bought from them and everything worked out to your satisfaction? (Correct me if I have the wrong company that you bought from).
Once again, for the record since some people don’t understand my position it seems, I am not pro these operations, on the contrary, many of them are probably, at best, selling sub-standard product. But when people post comments like, “I’m a financial planner and I’ve heard some horror stories” what do we really learn? We learn it seems that anyone can say anything about anyone online and it will be treated as fact, and so the story perpetuates itself with hearsay passing for informed comment. Yes the owner may be on fraud charges and this of course is enough of a reason to avoid them, but the same treatment is dealt out to all the hard sell phone room operations. Wellington it seems (hearsay) has managed to outperform all expectations in spite of the manner in which they were consistently bad mouthed in this forum.
Apparently many people complain about the hard sell tactics used, but why bother complaining? Why not hang up? These people don’t cold call, they receive “leads” or requests for info from the “prospect” and not the other way around.
It strikes me that in a litigious society like the U.S. no one wants to take personal responsibility any more and if they can pass the blame for their own poor decisions they will do so. This behaviour is actively encouraged by the Government as can be witnessed with the sub prime fiasco where people who wanted more house than they could afford lied, and were encouraged to lie by so-called “financial professionals” to get the loan. Now the Government wants to bail out all the liars in the chain at the expense of the tax payer…now that’s a scam.
I certainly don’t condone people who sell or misrepresent a product that is either over-priced, or worse, lacking permits, Title etc…etc.. and I certainly don’t condone the Fed Chairman Greenspan for deliberately keeping interest rates too low for too long and knowingly inflating the biggest real estate bubble in the history of mankind. There is, in my mind, little difference in the intent of these people, both of whom are offering something they can’t deliver.
dkt2u – Apparently you aren’t able to give details to lend credibility your story….(this is not a personal criticism).
1. To my knowledge only one developer has been caught red handed and that’s Mapache; a group with ties to some very influential people!! However, if you have more then please let’s have them. (You can’t be sued for stating facts, as Scott reminded us recently). If the National Press here can report on Mapache then I don’t see why you can’t give us these details that you have on these other “developers”.
2. You say people don’t have the resources to come to Costa Rica and pursue legal action; are these the same people that sent $50,000, $100,000 over the phone?
3. I would also suggest that some local developers might start construction without permits because they know they can get them with their “contacts”….but for a foreigner, back-handing the right public official might not be so straight forward.
4. If as you say these plots have been sold and title cannot be delivered how come I have not heard about it? The press down here is very active is seeking out such stories; so please tell me who is it that has been arrested for fraud or misrepresentation? (I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but there is nothing in the press here and not one person has complained in this site about not receiving title so let’s hear it.
5. If, as you claim you know so much then you will know that obtaining a permit to divide land into marketable 5,000m2 parcels is not a difficult process. It is in fact the most simple permit there is as it allows only a basic division of the land, nothing more. My understanding (and please correct me if you know of any selling small plots based on a Master Plan that doesn’t have approval) is that the firms selling land overseas are doing it this way. They may not even have any intention of developing but if the buyers know this then the only issue is price; lets hear what they are so I can be the judge as to whether they are fair or not.
Yours,
The bigger foolI don’t have to give you details. I am not targeting any developer in particular. Your experience in Costa Rica is obviously very lacking. In general, When it comes to Costa Rica, you are guilty until proven innocent in Costa Rica regarding critisism of an individual or company. I offered generalities that are based on personal experience and conversations with many individuals. As I said, I am not targeting any particular individual or company. No, I will not offer you specifics. If you want to invest with a developer that has numerous complaints against them and is not offering you absolute guarentees, then that is up to you. I simply do not do business with developers that do not have a proven track record of delivering on thier promises.
The fact is you don’t know of one “large developer” (your words) that has failed to deliver title do you? And that was how your argument started…..I rest my case.
Argument? I”m not sure what the whole reason is for your postings simon. The only person that started an argument is yourself. I simply pointed out what is well known and well documented in dozens of complaints against several of the large developers. Simply do a search on this forum and you will stay busy for the better part of a day reading complaints. For what ever reason you want to argue about this and want to defend these companies, that is up to you. This discussion is over now. Go do some actual research.
Simon you seem to concur with my ‘avoid’ as you rated it a short? Has new research lead you to upgrade to a neutral or even a buy? Please let us all know. My avoid was based on there CEO being lead away in handcuffs to stand trial for an unresolved fraud case. A website lacking any substantial information such as reputable Costa Rican professionals that could be contacted such as engineers, architects, contractor and attorneys associated with the projects that have a proven track record in Costa Rica that could be verified, the posting of there permits or applications for permits. I also new a member of the family that sold the property that became the now completed project. Yes based on my own due diligence my “gamble” paid off as I paid $6 perM2 for my property. The group I bought from had all of the above. That is what I based my avoid on, of course even in the finance world there are varying opinions on the same company…hence this is just my opinion based on what I guess you could consider anecdotal evidence. If I were interested in buying from WLI I would complete a more thorough due diligence.
As I wrote, the fact that the owner had been arrested on fraud charges was enough of a reason to avoid them. But the same kind of “avoid” comments were posted about the very company you chose to buy from. And that is exactly my point; you say they (the company you bought from) had all of their credentials in place and yet they were still featured in this forum on a regualar basis as if they had already done something wrong! What does this say about the credibility of the postings herein?!!
Boy Simon you never ever see someone else’s point unless it jibes with your own. Based on your response it appears you didn’t even read what I wrote? I detailed why I thought a and b were different. Read it slowly and try and understand my point and the points I make why I would rate WLI “avoid” and why I felt W********* was worth pursuing. It is all in the details with what was and is actually presented on there websites. Here I will do it point by point: W********* gives you names of there attorneys who have a stellar reputation in Costa Rica. Wellington gives you the Name of there Builder who again has a stellar reputation building in Costa Rica. W********* gives you the names of there environmental consultants as well as there engineers. W********* does not require you to send money to view the property. W********* posts there contract on line and uses Stewart title for escrow services and you can get your deposit back directly by calling Stewart if you choose to.
WLI gives you none of the above and there website gives very little actual information. And if you have any experience with building out a large development there pictures of an old truck and backhoe don’t instill a lot of confidence in what they are doing. As well as the yet unresolved fraud charge. These are the conclusions I have drawn on what I know…someone else may choose to draw another conclusion. My or anyone’s rating a company avoid/buy/sell does not prevent someone else from digging a bit deeper and perhaps drawing another conclusion….So just as there were negative chit chat about W********* it did no prevent me from buying, frankly I appreciated all viewpoints and in the end took responsibility for my own actions. Internet forums are places where people express opinions; this is not a court of law.
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